upgrade of navagation system

[Neptune's Gear]

Originally Posted by Exile

Thanks Matt. I always take negative reviews with a grain of salt, especially given all the variables when systems are owner-installed. I try and evaluate instead based on patterns, and of course negative press always far outlasts positive reviews it seems. There may also be different levels of customer service for the end user as opposed to a dealer.



Is it fair to say -- apples-to-apples that is -- that B&G is more expensive than Ray &/or Garmin?

Nah, B&G is no longer more expensive than the others. That used to be the case, but now it’s very similar.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by moseriw

10" Tablet with:

https://www.amazon.com/4smarts-Unive.../dp/B0727NTQTQ


AND: CHECK the abilities and the difference in price and usability

Yup, should have included tablets & smartphones along with PC's. I have an older iPad with a Lifeproof cover that I can mount in various places around the cockpit & helm via Ram mounts. I've got it loaded with Garmin Bluechart/Active Captain. I understand Samsung makes an Android tablet that can serve as a repeater for a PC, maybe even Bluetooth or Wifi. If true that seems ideal for getting PC-based nav software to display in the cockpit. Lots of options these days.

[Dockhead]

Do you have other instruments at the scuttle?



I would never want to be without separate instruments for depth, speed (could be combined in one), wind, no matter how big the MFD is. You want to be able to see the basic data at a glance and instantly, especially depth.


As to choice of maker:


One really big problem which people are having is the lack of support for expensive devices which are only a few years old. Do you plan to throw away your new nav system after 4 or 5 years, and buy a new one all over again?


You should think ahead and make sure that the maker's support policy matches up with how long you plan to keep the gear.


I personally think that navigation gear needs to be good for 10 years at least. I spent $20 000 on Navico gear which is all more or less totally unsupported, parts unavailable, firmware no longer updated, and was already more or less totally unsupported after only 4 years or so. I find this unacceptable and I will not be buying Navico next time.


Even if you don't plan to use it yourself for 10 years, you might very well care about being able to sell it.


When I got rid of my previous electronics -- all Raymarine from the turn of the century, and more than 10 years old, it was all still functioning perfectly, all still supported and with parts available, and was in great demand on EBay. I got a surprisingly large amount of money for it on EBay, more than $1000 for one of the MFD's although it was 12 years old or something. That's the way it should be. I don't know if Raymarine still supports their products so long, and certainly the newer gear is cheaper and more flimsy.

[rbk]

IMO tablets and laptops make excellent backup systems and are better at plotting a course, but I still want a waterproof plotter with dedicated power at the helm. You tablet batteries would last just long enough to make your way right into the middle a rocky inlet in a storm and no chance to run below and plug it in, Murphy is that kind of a**hole.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rbk

IMO tablets and laptops make excellent backup systems and are better at plotting a course, but I still want a waterproof plotter with dedicated power at the helm. You tablet batteries would last just long enough to make your way right into the middle a rocky inlet in a storm and no chance to run below and plug it in, Murphy is that kind of a**hole.

Ha, ha!


Oh how right this is.


When I first installed my current instruments, the B&G Zeus Touch for my helm was back ordered. I think it was the very first one imported into the UK. So I sailed for a couple of months with an IPad bungee corded to the empty nav pod at my helm.



Now I sailed for decades before having any kind of plotter at all, so theoretically this shouldn't be mission critical. But when you get used to having a plotter at the helm, you will do some things which you just wouldn't do without one -- so you inadvertently make the plotter mission critical.


So wouldn't you know, I was entering Poole Harbour at night, tired, on a dark overcast moonless night, and wouldn't you know the damned IPad shut itself down just as I passed the chain ferry. Anyone who has been in Poole Harbour at night knows that the buoyage is a total bewildering maze because of all the different intersection channels, not all of them lit, and some of them visible only intermittently. Arggh! And with banks with two inches of water between the channels, depending on the tide.


I nearly bought some Poole Harbour sea bed that night as I couldn't figure out which buoy was which in one case, and was able to save myself only by putting on the pilot and dashing below for a moment to look at the plotter at the nav table.


If you do stuff where the plotter is mission critical, make sure you have a hard wired, rugged, waterproof, real marine plotter at your helm! Not a piece of fragile consumer electronics!

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Do you have other instruments at the scuttle?

I would never want to be without separate instruments for depth, speed (could be combined in one), wind, no matter how big the MFD is. You want to be able to see the basic data at a glance and instantly, especially depth.

I also have a full array of older (pre-Navico) B&G instruments incl. depth sounder, wind, STW, sea temp, CMG, logs, and various other instruments (useful & not). They are all repeated from the nav station up to the helm. AP is also an excellent B&G unit, chartplotters are Garmin, and radar is an older analog Furuno. Everything plays quite nicely together via NMEA 0183. The laptop, tablet & smartphone add further redundancy, although they add ActiveCaptain which often proves quite useful.

Originally Posted by rbk

IMO tablets and laptops make excellent backup systems and are better at plotting a course, but I still want a waterproof plotter with dedicated power at the helm. You tablet batteries would last just long enough to make your way right into the middle a rocky inlet in a storm and no chance to run below and plug it in, Murphy is that kind of a**hole.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If you do stuff where the plotter is mission critical, make sure you have a hard wired, rugged, waterproof, real marine plotter at your helm! Not a piece of fragile consumer electronics!

These are valid points, although a marinized USB outlet in the cockpit (under the dodger) resolves the battery issue. Consumer electronics have also come a long way, and mine at least have proven quite rugged & reliable. Waterproof, 1000-pixel monitors like the Argonaut may even be as weather-resistant as a dedicated plotter. Then again, you both may be right that they don't match the level of ruggedness & reliability of a helm plotter exposed 24/7 to the elements. I suppose that's a significant part of what you're paying for.

[mikedefieslife]

I have a Simrad NSS8, and in it's day it was probably a good bit of kit, but is showing its age now. I've had a play with the newer models and the B&G models, all of which are much faster but as has been mentioned these Simrad products seem to get discontinued just a couple of years after their release.

Go to the Simrad website (https://www.simrad-yachting.com/en-gb/) and try doing a search for NSS8. You get absolutely no results. It's as if it never existed.

Now visit the Raymarine site (Raymarine Marine Electronics) and search for e165 which came out in 2012. You still get results from News, Specs, to Updates etc..

That being said. I've played with some of the latest Raymarine plotters, and they didn't seem as intuative to me as Simrad. Also I was not impressed that the MFD cannot share NMEA data via eithernet/wifi. Pretty much all the Simrad and B&G MFDs can do this either acting as an AP or better joining your existing infrastructure.

Oddly, support and products being discontinued at break-neck speed was why I previously vowed never to buy another Garmin product. My Oregon 600 was discontinued in less than 3 years. Fortunately Garmin has a vast network, and a big community so after a bit of searching around I was able to get the accessory I wanted.

I don't know much about Garmin's marine gear, and haven't had the chance to play, but in terms of looks/UI it seems appealing, and I'm familiar with Garmin style maps from my over-landing days. The integration with their PC software is a bonus for planing routes. I've used Basecamp (awful software) a lot with my Oregon, and Homeport. Surprised other manufactures don't have something like this. It's one benefit of owning the charts rather than relying on 3rd parties I suppose.

Furono is one I don't know much about other than their radars, but they seem to have good array of features especially with ARPA rather than MARPA, their guard zones and anchor watch seems better than the others too (from what i've been able to gather).

[BigAl.NZ]

I have brought an Axiom 9" from Raymarine. Been very happy with it. In terms of the support I have rung the local agent who are hopeless, but when I have contacted Raymarine Australia, I have immediately always spoken to someone who has been helpful.

My 0.02c worth.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

........

So wouldn't you know, I was entering Poole Harbour at night, tired, on a dark overcast moonless night, and wouldn't you know the damned IPad shut itself down just as I passed the chain ferry. Anyone who has been in Poole Harbour at night knows that the buoyage is a total bewildering maze because of all the different intersection channels, not all of them lit, and some of them visible only intermittently. Arggh! And with banks with two inches of water between the channels, depending on the tide.


I nearly bought some Poole Harbour sea bed that night as I couldn't figure out which buoy was which in one case, and was able to save myself only by putting on the pilot and dashing below for a moment to look at the plotter at the nav table.


......!

I don't use iPads, but on the Android phones and tablets I've found that getting them to a setting dark enough to not effect night vision for a no moon night in the cockpit is a problem. My chartplotter sets to a decent level.

[Alita49DS]

I am sure a lot of this is down to personal preference. However, there can be one unique selling point (USP) for an individual.

The USP for me was that when you set a go to or course on a Garmin MFD you get a nice thick purple line that is easy to see without needing to get a magnifying glass. On a Raymarine plotter there is a near invisible dotted line. Which cannot be changed to something more visible. That made the decision as to which MFD. Even though the rest of the kit on the boat is the original fit c2003 Raymarine.

[eemahoney]

A few years ago, I did the same thing on my Endeavour 42. I replaced the old pedestal steering with a new Edson Vision system, added a Raymarine C120 MFD, and also mounted the p60 control head, Maretron 150 display unit and the RAM mic on a Navico POD just above the Vision. All can be reduced to bare minimum or turned off for night sailing.

When entering tight areas, I set to p60 to show course and speed, the Maretron to show depth(large numbers)/Engine alarms and split screen the chart in two scales, one with radar overlay.

I find having the two dedicated displays in close quarters calms the nerves. Also , I have programed all the alarms to different tones, so I know by the sound which alarm is going off, I do not need to look.

[WE9V]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

Go to the Simrad website (https://www.simrad-yachting.com/en-gb/) and try doing a search for NSS8. You get absolutely no results. It's as if it never existed.

Their search tool apparently doesn't do discontinued products, but still plenty of info available at their website: Simrad Yachting NSS8 Chartplotter | Simrad Marine Electronics

[maxingout]

I am new to chart plotters with an Axiom 9 at the Nav station. All my instruments are Raymarine including radar. The instruments are impressive, but now I fear the $10k lightning strike.

I actually use paper charts to check what the electronic charts tell me. I find that the electronic charts give me an unwarranted sense of confidence when the wind and sea state are unfavorable. The wind and seas state determine what is possible on Exit Only, and not the chart plotter.

Wind speed and depth and my eyes have worked well for a long time.

When I sailed transatlantic, I had a handheld anemometer for wind speed and I looked at my wind generators to figure out apparent wind direction. Worked good.

I now have electronic charts that make me situationally aware and help me decide on my track. Still, I question the accuracy of many features on electronic charts. There is so much more to navigating than just knowing my position on a chart.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by maxingout

I am new to chart plotters with an Axiom 9 at the Nav station. All my instruments are Raymarine including radar. The instruments are impressive, but now I fear the $10k lightning strike.

I actually use paper charts to check what the electronic charts tell me. I find that the electronic charts give me an unwarranted sense of confidence when the wind and sea state are unfavorable. The wind and seas state determine what is possible on Exit Only, and not the chart plotter.

Wind speed and depth and my eyes have worked well for a long time.

When I sailed transatlantic, I had a handheld anemometer for wind speed and I looked at my wind generators to figure out apparent wind direction. Worked good.

I now have electronic charts that make me situationally aware and help me decide on my track. Still, I question the accuracy of many features on electronic charts. There is so much more to navigating than just knowing my position on a chart.

Does your chartplotter speak to you in ways that the paper charts are silent? It took you years to get the most out of your paper charts and understand the limitations. Give the chartplotter some time.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Exile

I only ask because I still have my old B&G instruments and AP which are getting long in the tooth at this point, and may need to upgrade.

If you replace your old B&G perhaps there is a market for the old stuff. Depending on what it is I might be interested.

Meanwhile, having all your navigation and instrumentation on one box at the helm station seems like putting all your eggs in one basket. And anyhow, I am not always sitting at my helm position so for me it would not be the most convenient set up.

And when doing route planning, do you do it at the helm station? Seems difficult, especially on a dark and rainy and windy night when you need to change your destination and set new courses and way points. Hard to do a good job of that our there on the MFD.

My preference is to do my navigation below at the nav station and have convenient displays in the cockpit.