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Old 21-01-2013, 08:43   #91
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

Sweeper skippers are lieutenants who will have had 60,000 sea miles. He wouldn't be on watch unless called by the OOD at 2:30 am which if there is any concern at any hour he is called.
The whole bridge team screwed up and will be held accountable but for all the talk here, most haven't anywhere near the sea time and while its easy and appropriate to Monday morning quarterback this; any one with any real sea time knows that we've all faced hazards where we could also be in the news like these guys. Navy ships are always out and hundreds are putting in millions of miles each year (safely).
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Old 21-01-2013, 09:06   #92
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

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Navy ships are always out and hundreds are putting in millions of miles each year (safely).
of course.

Assuming that the Pentagon doesn't get their electronic charts by bittorrent or buy SD cards at the nearest chandlery, the fault could lie elsewhere than with the bridge crew.
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Old 21-01-2013, 09:15   #93
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

They use paper charts backed up with ECDIS.
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Old 21-01-2013, 09:22   #94
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

By the way, I work with one of the guys that will likely be flying out to do the salvage. He was saying how important it was to lift the ship off rather than drag it because its wood.
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Old 21-01-2013, 10:18   #95
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

Here is the latest from PI. Hope you can read Taga'lish.

Quote:
The United States Ship Guardian is buffeted by waves as it lies on top of a coral reef in Tubbataha, Palawan in this aerial photo released by the Armed Forces of the Philippines Western Command (WESCOM) on Sunday. A team from the US Navy has arrived to assess the situation. The US Pacific Command has expressed regret over the incident.

MANILA - The Presidential Commission on the Visiting Forces Agreement (VFACOM) said the Philippine government will demand an explanation from the US government and hold those responsible for the damage done to the Tubbataha Reef due to the grounding of a minesweeper in the World Heritage Site.

"[Sinasabi ng] VFA na sila ay dapat sumunod sa ating batas. So ito nga ang epekto ng VFA - sila ay dapat sumunod sa ating batas. Sila ay ating pinananagot," VFACOM Executive Director Edilberto Adan told ABS-CBN's "Umagang Kay Ganda."

"They assured us they are cooperating with any action we will take. We are asserting our sovereignty here to make sure that accountability is established at kung ano man ang dapat panagutan, haharapin nila yan."

He denied crew members of the US Navy ship that ran aground beginning Thursday have been released. He said the rescued crew members were taken aboard another US ship but have remained in the country as investigations continue.

"Hindi accurate ang statement na iyon. Sila ay inilapat lamang sa mga rescue vessels na dumating dahil nga iyung ship ay floundering. Nandoon pa rin sila sa US ships na dumating," he said.

Adan was reacting to the claim of Clemente Bautista, Kalikasan People's Network for the Environment national coordinator, that the crew members have left the area without being probed.

The USS Guardian had come from a port call in Subic Bay and was on its way to Indonesia when it ran aground the Tubbataha Reef early morning Thursday. At least 10 meters of the coral reef have been damaged.

The US Navy blamed a faulty navigation chart data that may have misplaced the location of Tubbataha Reef for the grounding.

Lame

Bautista described the US Navy's explanation about the incident as "lame", citing the warship's supposed advanced capabilities.

"Ang USS Guardian ay kilala bilang isang may mahusay na navigation equipment at nakakapagtaka ay papuntang Indonesia ito. Eh pataas ang direction nila, hindi pababa," he said.

Militant group Kadamay also raised fears of a possible "cover-up" into the incident, citing the close ties between the US and the Philippines.

"Malacanang's preferred silence only leads us to believe of a highly possible cover-up in the investigation, and considering the overwhelming puppetry and subservience of the Aquino administration to the US government, and the latter's deeply-entrenched influence on the Philippine politics," Kadamay said in a statement.

Extrication underway

According to Adan, US and Philippine teams were already in the area to extricate the warship and prevent further damage to the corals at the UNESCO World Heritage Site.

The US Navy said that there has been no change on the ship's condition and there are no traces of an oil slick.

"Dalawa na ang salvage tugboats doon at meron isang darating na isang special purpose ship. Ang purpose nito is to control environmental damage kung sakaling may oil spill na tinatawag," he said.

Meanwhile, U.S. 7th Fleet Commander Vice Admiral Scott Swift said he "greatly regret(s) any damage this incident has caused to the Tubbataha Reef"

"We know the significance of the Tubbataha Reefs Natural Park and its importance as a World heritage Site. Its protection is vital, and we take seriously our obligations to protect and preserve the maritime environment," Swift said in a statement.

UNESCO declared the Tubbataha Reef a World Heritage Site in 1993. It covers 130,028 hectares and is home to thousands of marine species. – with ANC
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Old 21-01-2013, 10:23   #96
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

And.....................

Quote:
MANILA - Philippine President Benigno Aquino has given instructions not to allow the U.S. navy to salvage its grounded USS Guardian minesweeper without Philippine involvement, in order to minimise damage to coral reefs, a senior official said on Monday.

The ship, which is stuck on a reef at the Tubbataha natural marine park, a UNESCO World Heritage site, had just completed a port call at Subic Bay in the western Philippines when the grounding occurred last Thursday.

Officials said there were no reports of fuel leaking from the vessel. U.S. ships regularly dock in the Philippines for refuelling.

Transportation Secretary Joseph Abaya said any salvage operation should be vetted by the Philippines government.

"He (the president) wanted to make sure that we would be proactive on this, we minimise damage," Abaya told reporters when asked about Aquino's reaction to the incident.

"We should have close coordination with the Americans that we shouldn't just allow them to conduct their salvage operations on their own," Abaya said.

A salvage plan may involve draining fuel from the ship before it is moved to prevent the possibility of a major oil, he said.

The international conservation group World Wildlife Fund has said that a quick inspection showed that at least 10 meters (30 feet) of the minesweeper's hull had damaged the reef.

The World Bank said in a 2005 report that the Philippines' coral reefs contribute at least $1 billion annually to the local economy via tourism and sustainable fisheries.
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Old 21-01-2013, 10:31   #97
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

And a short video in Tagalog ...............

More damage on Tubbataha reef feared | ABS-CBN News
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Old 21-01-2013, 10:38   #98
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Lodesman-
A 1500# anchor just needs 30 men to get the load down to 50# each. Or 15 sailors, each shouldering 100#, which is what many footsoldiers carry in their packs these days. got a wimpy crew? No problem, 1500# goes wherever you want it, with one rope and one helicopter, and with fleet maneuvers, there's always a helo around. Of course, an American warship would never be measured in tonnes. That's metric, that's still anathema here.
I assume you're joking about getting a gaggle of sailors to carry the anchor?

Was Guardian operating with a fleet? I was under the impression they were operating alone.

BTW, I'm not American, so I can describe any ship's displacement however I please US warships are measured in long tons, so roughly equivalent to tonnes, which are easier for the rest of the world to understand.
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Old 21-01-2013, 16:04   #99
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

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Originally Posted by sailorF54 View Post
Ludicrous...
I have plotted (red crosses) the first 4 lat/long coordinates in the 2009 Act (disregarding the local Datum) They match perfectly the park limits as shown on CM93 charts...
These coordinates are wrong by 8 NM according to sat views (see a previous post of mine)... So the grounding has NOT taken place within the park limits as officially defined.

Don't be too harsh on that poor OOW. The charts he relied on were incredibly far off the mark: 8 NM !!!!
Its well known charts in that area can be inaccurate. Does not excuse the seemingly inadequate watch keeping by all means. In coral areas at night one does not rely entilely on charts either EDICS or paper.
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Old 21-01-2013, 17:07   #100
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
of course.

Assuming that the Pentagon doesn't get their electronic charts by bittorrent or buy SD cards at the nearest chandlery, the fault could lie elsewhere than with the bridge crew.
In lieu of charts perhaps they should've just listened and not been in a protected site in the first place!


"Park rangers radioed the USS Guardian to advise it was nearing the Tubbataha Reef on Thursday, but the ship captain insisted they raise their complaint with the US embassy, Ms Songco told reporters on Monday.
She said shortly after the warning, the 68-metre vessel became stuck on part of Tubbataha Reef, a UNESCO World Heritage Site on the Sulu Sea about 130 kilometres south east of the western island of Palawan.
The site is protected by Philippine law and is off-limits to navigation except for research or tourism approved by Ms Songco's office."
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Old 21-01-2013, 18:43   #101
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

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In lieu of charts perhaps they should've just listened and not been in a protected site in the first place!
Ouch. Didn't hear about that. Link?

So, they really don't have a sea-leg to stand on.
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Old 21-01-2013, 19:03   #102
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

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Thanks for the input, but I am still baffled.

I gather that you know of no accurately geolocalized paper chart for the area.
Using Luzon datum for WGS84 input would not account for the reported discrepancy. (100 to 200 m vs the reported c. 15 000 m; in a previous post, I also found about 8NM error between a satellite-derived position and several charts)
You state that CMAP ed 3 charts are fine. Now CMap charts are supposed to be perfect copies of official charts. For Cmap (NT+, MAX ...) chips at least, the list of official charts that have been used is readily available on the net. The list should be the same for CMap ed 3 charts (and why CMap ed 2 from 2011 should be wrong (unless the ed 3 is more recent))
e.g. covering that area
C-MAP Chart Catalogue - NT MAX Chartlisting
Now If no official charts are accurate, does that mean that CMap has 'corrected' the official charts using sat pics ?
Could you give us the lat/long of the light at the S end of the southern reef on Cmap ed 3 ?
CM93 Edition 2 and 3 are very different. Below is P.Princessa in Ed2 and Ed 3 on the right as an example.


I've taken some positions on the southern light on the reef from a number of chart sources:

CM93 Ed3: 08 44.10 119 48.96

Navionics: 08 44.05 119 48.85

US Paper Chart: 80 44.05 119 48.8 (a bit of an approximation as no light there in 1938).

In relation to satellite overlays, I can only do this with the Navionics chart and although the satellite picture is very poor, it does seem to correlate with the chart. I certainly don't get the 8 mile discrepancy that you do. I'm certainly within a mile at the very most.

As an aside, I have a friend who has had a live-aboard dive operation on Tubbataha for more than a decade now and he assures me that they are not out by 8 miles. Just the normal couple of hundred yards.
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Old 21-01-2013, 19:13   #103
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

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Ouch. Didn't hear about that. Link?

So, they really don't have a sea-leg to stand on.
Could be very, very costly.

US Navy ship 'ignored reef warnings' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Makes you wonder what the US response would be if a Chinese Naval vessel entered American waters in World Heritage Area that was off-limits to navigation, ignored all radio warnings and then grounded.

I think this shows a complete lack of respect by the US Navy.

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Old 21-01-2013, 21:43   #104
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

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"Park rangers radioed the USS Guardian to advise it was nearing the Tubbataha Reef on Thursday, but the ship captain insisted they raise their complaint with the US embassy, Ms Songco told reporters on Monday.
Ouch...link?
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Old 21-01-2013, 21:55   #105
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

Fleet maneuvers. Fleet orders. Fleet chain of command.

Foreign Park Rangers are not in the chain of command. Referring them to the proper superior officer (i.e. by diplomatic channel to the Navy) might also provide the answer to who stole the strawberry ice cream.
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