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Old 31-01-2013, 10:16   #196
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Lake-
"there was a friggin navigation light on the thing"
So you say. Breakers in the UK and in the US were known to set up false lights, to run ships aground so they could "salvage" the remains and cargo. That would be a cheap easy shot for Islamists looking to continue ruining the US reputation in the Pacific. Coupla hundred bucks, take a light down, put up a new one on a pole, voila, look at the damage you can do!
Unlikely, sure, but easily possible and historically done many many times in many many places. Perfect strategy in places where the lights are small and cheap, the charts easily distrusted, and the crews are going to trust their eyes over the instruments.
C'mon, that's REALLY out there. Any chart which shows the reef will show the light. There are links to charts etc upthread. When you're on the open sea and you see a light, you aim for it, do you?

No-one here seems to acknowledge the 10 nm exclusion zone... which, even if the charts were 8 or 9 nm off, would still have kept them 1+ nm away from the reef....
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Old 31-01-2013, 10:22   #197
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

From Panbo, here is the heart of the problem

"MANASSAS, Va., 24 Dec. 2006. The Lockheed Martin Maritime Systems and Sensors segment in Manassas, Va., won a $644 million contract for AN/SSN-2(V)5 navigation command and control (NAVC2) precise integrated navigation systems for U.S. Navy Avenger-class mine countermeasures ships.

The Avenger-class mine countermeasures ship USS Guardian, will receive the AN/SSN-2(V)5 navigation command and control (NAVC2) precise integrated navigation system.

The NAVC2 system is a major upgrade to the combat and navigation system for Avenger-class ships. It is an open-architecture system that supports future major combat stem upgrades to MCM-1 class ships and electronic chart and information display system-Navy capability. Comprising commercial satellite navigation, Hyper-Fix, and a Doppler sonar navigator that is integrated and controlled by dedicated MCM software, the NAVC2 provides the means to locate the ship and the target precisely. The system maintains and displays the ship's track, and integrates the target mine information into the navigation plot."

The deck officer was so impressed by this press release he ignored AT LEAST an hour's worth of radar targets and pressed on regardless--can you spell C-O-U-R-T M-A-R-T-I-A-L??
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Old 31-01-2013, 11:24   #198
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

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Originally Posted by sidmon View Post
Well. Well...

The "Modern Sirens" have bagged another boatload of unwary souls.

What I said here (and widely mischaracterized and derided by some folks in this venue) still applies...

As long as the significant human factors threat that has attended the evolution and widespread usage of electronic navigation remains unrecognized, or blown off with the hubristic notion that "they were just stupid...glad I'm not", then we will have the opportunity to discuss another of these puzzling cases in the not too distant future.

Before anyone starts in to frame this as a call to return to the stone age...Let me say that I just installed a new chart plotter -replacing an older model- on my own little plastic toy boat. And yes. It is integrated with the autopilot.

So what is this human factors threat? It is one of cognition. For the first time since the Polynesians and their forebears took to the sea in open canoes, the process of navigation no longer requires significant mental effort to derive a fix. Now we just expect the box (Modern Siren that it is...) to ceaselessly provide us with perfect information. And 99 point some odd per cent of the time it does.

Very quickly, we become inured to the threat of error, and we will let the age old aspects of uncertainty atrophy before we are even aware of it. After all. How could that pretty presentation on the screen be wrong?

But whatever. Flame away.

We will have the opportunity to revisit when the next case like this one happens, and every one is asking:

HOW COULD THIS HAPPPEN?!?!?!

Until then.

cheers
So your saying that if the person responsible for navigation on the ship was using a sextant they would have been ok?
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Old 31-01-2013, 11:27   #199
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

Of course, a sextant cannot fail, only the brain using it can have problems.
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Old 31-01-2013, 13:17   #200
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

Living in Subic, I hate to see our US Navy visitors come to grief on a reef.
They are good people, doing a tough and by its very nature, secretive job.

The vast majority of the locals greatly appreciated US Naval presence and their gifts of old jets, equipment and training to help them defend their land and offshore rights.

The issue of ‘Bad Charts’ is purely a legal red herring as the NAMRIA charts are notoriously full of clerical errors and of worst possible quality. It is just part of the Political legal defense from those with a personal agenda against the USA.

The accident will obviously damage a few careers and can only be attributed to very poor bridge management.
It is not anything more than that.
The good news is that by May/June when the light wind transition period is in force, the US will have cleaned off every piece of debris from that small part of the reef and life will go on.
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Old 31-01-2013, 14:49   #201
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

Pelagic,

I agree 100% with your observation.

Quote by Pelagic. "The accident will obviously damage a few careers and can only be attributed to very poor bridge management.

It is not anything more than that."
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Old 31-01-2013, 16:34   #202
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Lake-
"there was a friggin navigation light on the thing"
So you say. Breakers in the UK and in the US were known to set up false lights, to run ships aground so they could "salvage" the remains and cargo. That would be a cheap easy shot for Islamists looking to continue ruining the US reputation in the Pacific. Coupla hundred bucks, take a light down, put up a new one on a pole, voila, look at the damage you can do!
Unlikely, sure, but easily possible and historically done many many times in many many places. Perfect strategy in places where the lights are small and cheap, the charts easily distrusted, and the crews are going to trust their eyes over the instruments.
.

Myth .

In ye olden days lights were only used for navigation purposes to warn vessels of danger, not to mark safe passages. and simply waving lanterns on a shore would not project light very far anyway. In any event if a vessel does not know where it is (and mostly that was the norm) and sees lights it thinks are on land the last thing it would do is head in, in fact the exact opposite! as land is danger. More sense to extinguish lights.

Wrecking (shipwreck) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What likely happened was that a visitor got the wrong end of the stick when they saw people salvaging a vessel that had already foundered (in a freemarket kinda way!), would be lots of lanterns around then.....and in some areas a vessel coming ashore would not be uncommon, so the locals very well prepared! and likely also lots of evidence of past salvaging booty lying around the local village(s). Not quite an industry, but more than a hobby!

Of course Al Quaida etc could have yanked the plug on the reef light, but that really doesn't sound very likely does it? .
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Old 31-01-2013, 16:35   #203
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
The deck officer was so impressed by this press release he ignored AT LEAST an hour's worth of radar targets and pressed on regardless--can you spell C-O-U-R-T M-A-R-T-I-A-L??
And you know the reef was on their radar for one hour...

What is you source of for information?
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Old 31-01-2013, 16:47   #204
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If this were in US waters it would have been pulled off within a day or two. In PI they don't have the resources for such immediate response and it takes time to get vessels in the area to do the work.
The US Navy has salvage ships stationed in the area. One used to hang out in nearby Palau while I was there. These ships have huge pulling capabilities but may do more damage than good. Sometimes the grounded ships just pull apart.

I think the Navy is more familiar with groundings and salvage than one might first think.
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Old 31-01-2013, 16:57   #205
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

I suspect the ship was holed pretty quickly and they wouldn't have wanted to pull it off only to sink in very deep water before they were able to offload the oil and other hazardous materials, not to mention possible secret stuff. The salvage guys are probably choosing the lesser of two evils.
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Old 31-01-2013, 18:21   #206
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

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The US Navy has salvage ships stationed in the area. One used to hang out in nearby Palau while I was there. These ships have huge pulling capabilities but may do more damage than good. Sometimes the grounded ships just pull apart.

I think the Navy is more familiar with groundings and salvage than one might first think.
The closest one for that type of salvage was in Sasebo, Japan. The USNS Salvor, which is scheduled to arrive Thursday (today) and the tug Vos Apollo is en route. The 255-foot Salvor dislodged the 567-foot guided-missile cruiser USS Port Royal in 2009 after it ran aground on a shoal off Honolulu.

More Navy assets have arrived on scene, including a Navy assessment team, the guided missile destroyer USS Mustin, MSV C-Champion, oceanographic survey ship USNS Bowditch and M/V Trabajador and support units, Stockman said. The U.S. Navy is receiving security assistance from the Philippine navy and coast guard while it comes up with a final plan to remove the ship.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:17   #207
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

I suspect the ship was holed pretty quickly and they wouldn't have wanted to pull it off only to sink in very deep water before they were able to offload the oil and other hazardous materials, not to mention possible secret stuff. The salvage guys are probably choosing the lesser of two evils.
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:49   #208
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

At first is was just slightly onto the reef. It wasn't till the waves started washing it up that the major damage occurred.
If it were pulled off right away, all they would have to tend with would have been some damage control. Hast makes waste.
If they even would have kept it in reverse for as long as they could, it might have come off by itself. But once abandon, that's it for any boat!
If this were 200 years ago, do you think they would have walked away?
I know this is just my opinion, but I wouldn't have given up so easily. They may have been holed so bad right off to warrant abandonment, but w/o knowing that it doesn't seem like a wise decision to walk away. But neither was running it up on the reef!

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Old 01-02-2013, 09:28   #209
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Re: U.S. Navy ship goes aground due to bad charts

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At first is was just slightly onto the reef. It wasn't till the waves started washing it up that the major damage occurred.
If it were pulled off right away, all they would have to tend with would have been some damage control. Hast makes waste.
If they even would have kept it in reverse for as long as they could, it might have come off by itself. But once abandon, that's it for any boat!
If this were 200 years ago, do you think they would have walked away?
I have the impression, backed up by initial pictures including the one you just posted, that she drove up pretty hard onto the reef, and that the forward third of her hull is on the reef. That's a pretty solid grounding. Also, given the hull construction, if the initial holing is serious, your options would be limited to let her sink on the reef, or in deep water.

So I don't think anyone walked away from her prematurely. My 2 cents, and of course I'm not USN, professional mariner, or a marine engineer. Nor have I played one on TV.

We will hopefully have all this cleared up after an inquiry.

Agreed that it's unfortunate for the boat, her crew and the reef.
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Old 01-02-2013, 09:48   #210
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Once the determination to abandon was reached the boat was probably sanitized of classified data and equipment within an hour or so. They have procedures in place, just like running a drill with real hammers, shredders and thermite.
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