Too Dependent on Modern Electronics?

[h20man]

Originally Posted by Capt Phil

Not sure I agree totally with you, Jeff... while nav aids such as radar, GPS, electronic charts and plotters do open cruising to many who otherwise have not had the time, inclination or opportunity to develop nav skills of pre-electronic cruisers, there is, IMHO, a danger in turning these folks loose on busy waterways and well traveled ocean routes trusting entirely that their electronic suites are going to work every time they hit the 'on' button. Imagine an inexperienced boater sailing down the west coast or in the intercoastal waterway and being beset by thick fog and losing their radar, plotter and other electronic nav aids. If they haven't charted their last position on paper in the last hour or so, they probably don't have a clue where they are, where they are going or how to arrive safely at ANY destination.
As a licenced skipper, the experience you have, familiarity with the area you are in and knowing your vessel put you way ahead of the inexperienced guy who just had a sheet thrown over his head.
I feel that folks that take to the sea should have a basic sustainability plan that when everything goes to sh*t, they have a good chance of making it out the other end without harm to themselves or others... just random thoughts from an old salt... cheers, Capt Phil

Tragically, I have heard of vessel assist getting called out in heavy fog, as some boaters could not even read the electronic stuff they had on board....

I agree that it is good to have a clue as to what is going on, and be able to make use of the God given Brain to think through a problem to a solution....

On the other hand, I am in favor of darwinism to help keep the community safe.... (except when I am stuck in fog and a bit addled as to my position....)

[ActiveCaptain]

Originally Posted by Capt Phil

Imagine an inexperienced boater sailing down the west coast or in the intercoastal waterway and being beset by thick fog and losing their radar, plotter and other electronic nav aids. If they haven't charted their last position on paper in the last hour or so, they probably don't have a clue where they are, where they are going or how to arrive safely at ANY destination.

Nonsense. The first thing they'd do is pick up their iPhone and get a perfect backup to their chartplotter. Why is the only acceptable backup a paper chart?

I'm not afraid of a whole new set of boaters learning to enjoy our thing. I'm much more afraid of it all being too expensive and too difficult where no one new or recently retired is doing it any longer.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by boasun

I come from an era where there wasn't any GPS. Used Coastal piloting & Celestial for Navigation.

That's OK.

But many of your so called modern Captains seem to depend 100% on the GPS and have forgotten how to navigate with at least Coastal piloting.

Wrong. You can only forget something you know.

So if their GPS gives up the ghost, they are totally lost big time.

??? Not impossible, but unlikely.

Where the minimum is logging in the nav log, each course, speed and time on that course. This should be done so they may DR in either direction without the GPS. But no, it is too much work for them. There but for the Grace of God and attention to details, go I. Have recovered positions for other crew members when they ignored what they could & should have been doing. But it seems that the bad habits developed by today's modern skipper are very hard to break.

??? Why would you like to break other people's habits? As long as they are in their boats, they can navigate their way. A GPS logs all the data you request unless you switch the function off.

So please plot your position on a chart at least once & hour.
And teaching your kids about navigation is a good way to learn the art.

Children are like all other people - they will not walk when they can drive. They will get bored and buy a GPS. Buying is easy and it is pleasant.

Note: Have had GPS go belly up on me a time or two and always have by habit knew where I was at, because of years sailing before Modern Toys.

I bought our first Garmin 72 back in 2002 and it is still onboard and functions flawlessly. As is the 76 we bought around 2005. 35k+ Nm, fail rate ZERO.

b.

[barnakiel]

IMHO it is quite the opposite - our boats are seriously UNDER-gizmoed.

Where are all those fantastic things I can see in sailing magazines? Well, they are mostly there, while they should be on each boat!

BUDGET

I do not believe there is a way to convince anybody to use / not use / GPS / sextant. Some will sail like this, others like that. I hope both kinds will make it to the other shore.

Why should I care about how OTHERS do their navigation? I have enough fun and hassle doing my own.

b.

[spinwing]

The operative word is “too”.

Many of the “old time” posters seems to focus on what happens if the electric toys get turned off.

Next time you are waiting at the gate area of an airport for your next flight; have a look at the bags being wheeled by the two pilots as they head down the ramp. Their ‘carry-on’ bag plus a ‘catalogue case’ strapped to the roller is good. That is what you are used to seeing. The ‘catalogue case’ contains all of the paper plates, charts and books that they will need for the flight. Good stuff.
If on the other hand, all the have are their overnight ‘carry-ons’ be scared – be very scared! Why ? Because the aircraft that you are about to board has a ‘glass cockpit.’ It is all electronic – no paper, no little circular slide rules, nada. Not only that, the flight plan is probably stored electronically with air traffic control.
So, do you board knowing that GPS ‘could be’ switched off by the military? Of course you do. It is all legal and approved and safe. What is the secret – redundancy. Each engine has a generator, the pilots have displays that can be switched to show whatever they need, and there is also a battery backup, etc. Guess what: many airports now only have GPS based approaches.
So the question really is: What back up do you have? Mono hull sailboat? Solar, wind generator? Cat or twin engine power boat with two generators? Not a big deal.

I started using electronic navigation systems in 1973 in the Arctic. Did I carry paper – you bet. These days with the huge increase in air traffic density do I want all of the electronic help that I can get? Absolutely.
Can I use celestial navigation – yes.
Can I use radar – absolutely.
Coastal navigation and pilotage.- of course. I teach the stuff.

What do I have on board for cruising?
Chartplotter.
VHF, DSC, AIS
Charts
Plotting instuments
TWO back up hand help GPS.

Log GPS position every hour, less if dew point is within a degree of the temperature, or before entering fog.
Last time I plotted a position on a chart was late last summer when a friend radioed the co-ordinates of the anchorage position. I could have just put it in as a mark but I happened to be at the chart table.
Are the electronic toys reliable? Absolutely, BUT you also have to know how to use them.
In aviation it is called 'situational awareness.' Using all of the tools in your 'bag.'
But the line I think fits best is: "Don't put yourself anywhere your brain wasn't 30 seconds ago.

[jkleins]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

IMHO it is quite the opposite - our boats are seriously UNDER-gizmoed.

Where are all those fantastic things I can see in sailing magazines? Well, they are mostly there, while they should be on each boat!

BUDGET

I do not believe there is a way to convince anybody to use / not use / GPS / sextant. Some will sail like this, others like that. I hope both kinds will make it to the other shore.

Why should I care about how OTHERS do their navigation? I have enough fun and hassle doing my own.

b.

Agree completely. Given unlimited budget everyone should have GPS, radar, AIS and all the other acronyms that you can get. Since everyone doesn't have an unlimited budget we each have to pick what means the most to us and then just take the heat from all those on the other threads who think the thing you left off was the most critical piece of equipment you can buy.

Jim

[Capt Phil]

Great retort, Jeff! I can barely use my Iphone which gives you an idea the era I come from. I stil cling to the belief that simpler can be better in some circumstances but technology keeps out stripping many of our abilities to keep up. When we rely on it completely, we expose ourselves needlessly IMHO. Love your boat by the way... had a DeFever 54 for many years on the west coast... one of the last ones built in Japan before Art moved the operation to Taiwan... cheers, Capt Phil

[James Baines]

I agree with Dave (Post #5): There are probably more folks today with at least some level of basic navigation skills than at any other point in history. It might be because few, if any of us, totally trust our electronic devices, it might be because some insurance companies offer incentives to train, or, it might simply be because in most things we do in life, particularly potentially dangerous ones, we like to have a back up plan, just in case. I have trained my dog to always point to the North and I Never leave port without asking my wife for directions... James

[doug86]

Yeah, old school is the way to go! No GPS, no radar...nothing to rely on but the tried and true, traditional way of navigating with keen eyeballs and a stout boat.

This boat went into the surf in broad daylight on March 31st. on the south shore of Fire Island, NY. Will probably be a total loss.

Old tech, new tech. It doesn't matter. Nothing replaces basic seamanship.

[Woodchuck]

I would love to be able to navigate with a sextant but a decent one is a few hundred bucks used. I can buy three handhelds for that. That's a lot of money for something that is a novelty unless the lights go out for modern civilization. There are a lot of things higher on the worry list that three hundred bucks could help to assuage.

[goboatingnow]

The Military who controls the GPS satellites can at any time reach up and throw the switch for all of them to OFF. That can happen in times of threats, war and war drills. And they have done this to specific areas recently.

Believe you me, if the military ever throw the total OFF switch , the last thing on your mind will be your location. Possibly this will be your last thought also.

Speculating on total catastrophic events does not justify anything.

Dave

[Capt Phil]

Not only that, Woodchuck... it takes practice to remain proficient with a sextant. Using reduction tables and a reliable time piece are pretty easy to master, where the real trick comes in is taking a noon or star shot from a moving deck and that takes practice. It is more of a way to pass the time today than a real nav aid. With inexpensive GPS's available, it is more of a novelty. You should be able to pick up an inexpensive, plastic model pretty cheap at marine flea market or used chandlery. The more expensive models like high end Plaths will cost you several hundred $ used if you can find them. If you are really interested, by a cheapy and a book of reduction tables, study a bit and try it out in your back yard. I used to pull mine out on deliveries just to shake up the crew but always tried to glance at the GPS to check my work... cheers, Capt Phil

[knotnow]

Originally Posted by Capt Phil

Not sure I agree totally with you, Jeff... while nav aids such as radar, GPS, electronic charts and plotters do open cruising to many who otherwise have not had the time, inclination or opportunity to develop nav skills of pre-electronic cruisers, there is, IMHO, a danger in turning these folks loose on busy waterways and well traveled ocean routes trusting entirely that their electronic suites are going to work every time they hit the 'on' button. Imagine an inexperienced boater sailing down the west coast or in the intercoastal waterway and being beset by thick fog and losing their radar, plotter and other electronic nav aids. If they haven't charted their last position on paper in the last hour or so, they probably don't have a clue where they are, where they are going or how to arrive safely at ANY destination.
As a licenced skipper, the experience you have, familiarity with the area you are in and knowing your vessel put you way ahead of the inexperienced guy who just had a sheet thrown over his head.
I feel that folks that take to the sea should have a basic sustainability plan that when everything goes to sh*t, they have a good chance of making it out the other end without harm to themselves or others... just random thoughts from an old salt... cheers, Capt Phil

Amen and a BIG +1 for your thoughts Capt. Phil

[goboatingnow]

The reality here is we live in the GPS age. Get over it. None of this eliminates the need for common sense. While it's amusing to relate pseudo anecdotal " idiot" stories, the fact remains it's a safe sport.

Dave " licensed skipper".

[barnakiel]

I think the military could switch it off. But it's not just that.

Read on the status of the network, maintenance issues, failure modes (it does not have to be the satellites, it can be the ground computer network, the power grid, etc...), then think about the solar radiation problems.

I bet we will have a worldwide "Day Without GPS" one day sooner or later. Make your own decisions and make them wisely.

We all know nuclear power plants are 100% secure. Except for the ones in Chernobyl and Fukushima.

b.