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Old 07-11-2013, 15:53   #121
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Sergeant Rock and Colonel Techtite always advise redundancy in any system prone to failure. It's the freedom to choose that is important. Let's keep the paper charts and knowledge to navigate. GPS systems become worthless in heavy cloud cover and rain as well as certain locations for unknown reasons. EMP, war, and extra-terrestial activity can effect electronic devices as well. With all this technology, I just see people getting stupider by the day...incredible really! I would be the guy sailing away from Fukishima on a floating trash heap if I had to...while keeping the paper charts dry somehow... that said...I love my Garmin map plotter with the central american chip!!
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Old 07-11-2013, 16:03   #122
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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Let's keep the paper charts and knowledge to navigate…….

GPS systems become worthless in heavy cloud cover and rain …..

With all this technology, I just see people getting stupider by the day...incredible really!
It would appear this is happening even for those without all this technology…

Mark
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Old 07-11-2013, 19:24   #123
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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It would appear this is happening even for those without all this technology…

Mark
Maybe we're again in the territory of peoples' experience with older technology. Very early civilian GPS receivers were pretty pathetic and had a good deal of trouble locking to the satellites signals, resulting in way long Time To First Fix in general and was worse in weather. Reflection errors also were uncompensated and lead to position errors. Modern (as in the last 10 years at least) are improved by orders of magnitude and in general have none of these problems. In my stuff, I'm generally unsatisfied if the reported position error is grater than about 5 meters. It's usually better than that, especially after the filters have had time to settle. The challenge is getting a fast and accurate first fix. In chartplotters, first fix is unimportant. I don't think anyone should have a problem with trusting a fix from a modern receiver. These days, if an error is observed on a chartplotter, I'd be looking at the chart data, not the fix. The fix is likely valid and can be plotted to a paper chart (assuming it's reasonably up to date). This exact situation happened to me on the ICW a couple of years ago. The chartplotter had us on land, and it was pretty obvious to us that we were dead center of the channel. For giggles, we plotted our lat/lon (as reported from the chartplotter) on to paper, and verified that we were in fact in the channel
To be fair, I think the E-chart data is getting better all the time, but I continue to trust, then verify.
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Old 08-11-2013, 00:09   #124
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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GPS systems become worthless in heavy cloud cover and rain as well as certain locations for unknown reasons.
Once again there is still some confusion between the roles of electronic charts and GPS. Electronic charts work without GPS.

Modern GPS systems will maintain an accurate fix in heavy cloud cover and rain when they have a reasonable view of sky (as they do on a boat). My GPS has been running almost continuously for the last six years and has never lost a fix.
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Old 08-11-2013, 00:43   #125
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The pros and cons of electronic vs. paper charts have been well stated by both sides. And, it is obvious from the sentiments expressed that the medium you choose for navigation reflects both your personality, skills and concept of sailing. Several years ago, I bought a Garmin chartplotter as an addition to my paper charts. It was never used as my primary plotting device but as a reference point in coastal waters to the fixes and DR track I kept on my paper charts. My chartplotter has been frequently inaccurate, especially along shore, and I trust my LOP's with a hand bearing compass more than the icon position showed on the electronic plotter. When sailing offshore, I use paper charts and a GPS to reference/validate my DR track and position fixes and I believe it is quite accurate. But, in the past, I have sailed many times with no electronics(including no depth sounder) and only by dead reckoning. My problem with electronic charts and really everything electronic is not that there is anything inherently wrong with them, perhaps just the opposite, but rather that it is just these things from which I seek to escape when I sail. The feel of a sturdy paper chart under hand, the copious notes and highlighted cautions, a simple drawing compass and parallel rulers that inch across the ocean in a rhythmic stride can never, for me, be replaced by the pulsing glow of the all knowing machine. But, my private world is one of music and words . . . and there lies the rub.
Lovely , but you sound like you sail the HMS pinafore

Parallel rules on a 30' footers chart table , sure !!!

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Old 08-11-2013, 07:45   #126
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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Lovely , but you sound like you sail the HMS pinafore

Parallel rules on a 30' footers chart table , sure !!!

Dave
Why not parallel rules on a 30 foot boat, Dave? When we did our first blue water passage on our Yankee 30 (SF-Hawaii-SF) in 1983, using celestial, I seem to remember using them and we didn't even have a proper chart table!

And folks like Guzzwell (sp?) and Blythe (sp?) certainly did so on even smaller boats.

Cheers,

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Old 08-11-2013, 07:54   #127
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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Thanks. You saved me $ I can use for more important provisions, like bourbon and beer.
Cheers.
A real dedicated GPS is still much better than a phone. It is incomparably more rugged, more waterproof, and it is not busy with other jobs, and it doesn't crash. You can pick up an obsolete Garmin or Magellan GPS brick for probably $25 on Fleabay -- which runs off AA batteries -- I would strongly recommend that over the phone. If you put the word out that you need one, someone will probably just give you one -- there must be millions of them lying around unused.

I really like the runner's Garmin wear-like-a-watch GPS units (E Trex or something like that) -- used to sail with one as my preferred and primary nav device before I got my first plotter. It's right there on your wrist for an instant read of position, COG, SOG, DTW, ETA -- perfect.
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Old 08-11-2013, 08:10   #128
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Why not parallel rules on a 30 foot boat, Dave? When we did our first blue water passage on our Yankee 30 (SF-Hawaii-SF) in 1983, using celestial, I seem to remember using them and we didn't even have a proper chart table!

And folks like Guzzwell (sp?) and Blythe (sp?) certainly did so on even smaller boats.

Cheers,

Jim
I've used parallel rules in class, but always a Breton plotter ( Portland plotter) on the boat . A parallel rules is very difficult to use when you can't get the compass rose on the same area as the plot destination. On a small boat say with full size admiralty charts its very difficult to use. Admiralty charts were designed to be laid out flat and fully open. Even half folded they loose functionality.

A Breton plotter on the other hand , of course ,carries its compass rose with it.


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Old 08-11-2013, 08:11   #129
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On our last boat (30' steel mono), we had a sextant, parallel rules, handheld GPS, paper charts, etc. In the late 90s. For one duration of 6 months we had no engine, no depth sounder and no problem. Ha ha. Mostly no problems, but jeez we learnt to sail that boat well.

On a previous boat, no GPS, but we had a plastic sextant, paper charts, RDF, etc, no problem in the 80s. I was just a kid but could do an LOP and noon site before I hit high school.

On the current boat, we have an extra hull, but still have the sextant, parallel rules, plastic sextant, paper charts, open CPN, iNAVx on an iPAD, etc. No problem.

The key to this stuff is having a good understanding of the basics, JUST IN CASE. Open CPN and iNAVx are incredible. That is what we use. On long passages, we note our position in an exercise book every 24 hours. In other locations in the 90s we noted it every 15 minutes as we scraped by a reef at night.

There are no rules! It is judgement. And that judgement comes from many f-ups over many years. No short cuts.
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Old 08-11-2013, 08:56   #130
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... The key to this stuff is having a good understanding of the basics, JUST IN CASE...
Isn't this really what it's about. Understanding the underlying concepts allows one too debug problems and adjust to circumstances. The more tools I have in my toolbox, the less I rely on my hammer.
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:06   #131
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I've used parallel rules in class, but always a Breton plotter ( Portland plotter) on the boat . A parallel rules is very difficult to use when you can't get the compass rose on the same area as the plot destination. On a small boat say with full size admiralty charts its very difficult to use. Admiralty charts were designed to be laid out flat and fully open. Even half folded they loose functionality.

A Breton plotter on the other hand , of course ,carries its compass rose with it.


Dave
+1

Parallel rules are great on a big ship, but nearly useless on a yacht, in my humble experience, except in a dead calm. You can't transfer the lines before they're shaken off position.

Thought you guys called them "Portland Plotters", however. We do. Breton plotters! Never thought I'd hear a Brit give so much credit to the French

Essential instrument. I've worn out half a dozen of them, I think.
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:34   #132
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

I like the triangles, over the parallel rulers. The rolling ruler is okay, I just haven't used one enough to be confident in it.
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Old 08-11-2013, 14:09   #133
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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A real dedicated GPS is still much better than a phone. It is incomparably more rugged, more waterproof, and it is not busy with other jobs, and it doesn't crash. You can pick up an obsolete Garmin or Magellan GPS brick for probably $25 on Fleabay -- which runs off AA batteries -- I would strongly recommend that over the phone. If you put the word out that you need one, someone will probably just give you one -- there must be millions of them lying around unused.

I really like the runner's Garmin wear-like-a-watch GPS units (E Trex or something like that) -- used to sail with one as my preferred and primary nav device before I got my first plotter. It's right there on your wrist for an instant read of position, COG, SOG, DTW, ETA -- perfect.
My 6 yr old blackberry that work doesn't want to replace keeps chugging along and I treat it pretty harshly. It gets thrown around and spritzed in light rain on a regular basis. As I mentioned previously, get a waterproof case if you are concerned. As most people already get a cell phone and the cell companies are pushing us towards smart phones, the incremental cost is marginal if any.

I have one of those old brick GPS' you talk about but since it doesn't have mapping capability it purely an emergency backup as it's a pain to translate lat/long into a position on a map.
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Old 08-11-2013, 15:27   #134
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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A real dedicated GPS is still much better than a phone... I really like the runner's Garmin wear-like-a-watch GPS units (E Trex or something like that) -- used to sail with one as my preferred and primary nav device before I got my first plotter. It's right there on your wrist for an instant read of position, COG, SOG, DTW, ETA -- perfect.
I have a Magellan Brick, PC w/ GPS and OpenCPN, and iPhone. I do think a GPS watch could be a good idea and would meet my minimal want (I almost said 'need' but who really needs 4 GPSs).
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Old 08-11-2013, 16:28   #135
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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(I almost said 'need' but who really needs 4 GPSs).
Who? A person who has 3 GPSs that have fallen into the toilet, that's who!

Jim
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