Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-11-2013, 10:47   #106
Wayfaring Mariner
 
captain58sailin's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Homer, AK is my home port
Boat: Skookum 53'
Posts: 4,045
Images: 5
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

I'll bring it back for you, all I need is your bank account details and a $150,000 USD to start, I know the Prince personally.
__________________

__________________
" Wisdom; is your reward for surviving your mistakes"
captain58sailin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 11:39   #107
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Obviously, my query was related to the assertions that one would need a mechanical chronometer to be able to do celestial after a destructive lightning strike.
OK, I think that point was mostly made as an extreme to counter the equally extreme point of lightning killing every electronic thing on a boat. If one uses that view strongly, then one is not logically allowed to exclude an electronic watch from this armageddon strike damage. If one excludes an electronic watch, one then must agree that survival of small, unconnected electronics is probable.

In other words, it was a rhetorical debate construct.

We don't have a large display - laptops only, but I am amazed at the number of boats I see with 27" and larger high-res displays. Even small boats - and the numbers increase every year!

Mark
__________________

__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 12:52   #108
Registered User
 
jkindredpdx's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35'
Posts: 1,047
Images: 5
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
... As a side note, all the talk about 27 inch displays... few cruising yachts have either the room, the budget or the available power to support such a thing...

Cheers,

Jim
I'm not necessarily recommending it, but I have an $89 - 20" diagonal x 1.4" thick LED monitor mounted in the saloon. It could be seen from the cockpit if I'd just mount the swing arm I bought at the same time. I got one with an external AC/DC adapter, bought a plug from Radioshack and wired it to my DC panel. It's very light weight. Although the Spec sheet says it draws 25w, I haven't noticed a drain, I should check that I use it mostly for movies
__________________
http://www.sednahr35.blogspot.com/ Jim K.
jkindredpdx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 14:08   #109
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,748
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
OK, thanks for that observation. I do wear a watch... otherwise how would I know what day it is? Also occasionally need it for tidal thoughts and so on. Batteries seem to last several years, and give warning about decay by dimming the backlight noticeably long before the time/display functions cease.

Obviously, my query was related to the assertions that one would need a mechanical chronometer to be able to do celestial after a destructive lightning strike. We do carry our old sextant and adequate tables for rough celestial nav, but I draw the line at a chronometer. Dockhead may have the free funds and space for one but I don't feel that I do (I share his admiration for them as works of art, though)!

Our pressure cookers are old Presto models, made from fairly thick cast aluminium. There is excellent metal to metal contact for just under 50% of the circumference of the lid, made through the locking tabs that hold the lid on under pressure. I'm pretty sure that the electric fields inside would be minimized with that degree of enclosure . Not so sure about more modern ones made of s/s and with different clamping systems... no opinion there.

As to the question of the day re paper vs electronic charting... I use both, understand both and appreciate the advantages of each one. I can't understand any serious navigator not agreeing with this attitude.

As a side note, all the talk about 27 inch displays... few cruising yachts have either the room, the budget or the available power to support such a thing. Smoke 'em if you have 'em, guys, but for most of us the best display we're likely to use is on a laptop, and this size and resolution do present functional limitations, at least for me.

Cheers,

Jim
I'm not saying this is the only way to do, nor am I even saying it is the best way to do it, but here is my backup navigation plan.

First of all -- I think chart plotters are already essential tools. I can't believe I'm writing that; how many years did I blissfully navigate with handheld GPS and paper. But I already find navigating without an electronic chart plotter to be unacceptable.

Therefore, I have backups to backups. The main nav system is two B&G Zeus 8" plotters, which I love (although as it has been said -- you can't do any planning on an 8" SVGA screen). Backup to that and much used is the IPad with INavX. Ship's computer has a 23" display and OpenCPN, although it is not yet fully up and running - GPS data feed and N2K instrument feed is not yet fully worked out. My phone (!) has a nice GPS and plotter function (it is a full HD screen -- a Sony Experia Z).

In a biscuit tin in my cabin (far from any rigging) I keep a Boy Scout compass, a watch, and old Garmin mapping GPS with spare lithium batts. Whether this will be an effective Faraday cage or not, I don't know, and hope to never test it.

So if we get wiped out by lightning, I hope to have GPS position with which together with the paper I have on board will be a reasonably effective nav system.

If everything gets wiped out by lightning, I will not short my pants. There will be no panic on board my boat. I sailed for years in a dinghy without even a compass. The ancients Greeks didn't have anything more. I will do exactly as Nick suggested, and as the ancient Greeks in their time did -- I will sail in the vague direction of land. I am not too celestially astute, but I know enough about the daytime and nighttime sky to be able to make out rough compass directions. When I make landfall, I will feel my way along the coast until I find a port -- just the way the ancient Greeks used to do it. Then I will follow the buoyage in and tie up. Have a martini and a shower before going off in search of a marine electronics shop.

The fact that I have the layout of all the South Coast ports of England memorized will no doubt be of assistance. Paper charts can be extremely useful even without a compass (much less a GPS), as conspicuous features are marked, and we still have the old Mark I eyeball even after a lightning strike (and if we don't, we're really up the creek).

I don't think it's actually rocket science. I would not freak out if I lost all navigational data. I would just sail her home the way I used to do in my old sailing dinghy which didn't even have a compass.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 15:41   #110
Registered User
 
jkindredpdx's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35'
Posts: 1,047
Images: 5
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
... In a biscuit tin in my cabin (far from any rigging) I keep a Boy Scout compass, a watch, and old Garmin mapping GPS with spare lithium batts. Whether this will be an effective Faraday cage or not, I don't know, and hope to never test it.
So I don't have a Chartplotter, but do use OpenCPN and Paper Charts. My Magellan GPS is a verrrrrry old brick. I'd like to get a good simple handheld GPS mostly for sailing , but also for hiking etc. Any recommendations for a good value but quality brand and model.
__________________
http://www.sednahr35.blogspot.com/ Jim K.
jkindredpdx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 21:09   #111
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,386
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
I guess, I am just a dinosaur, I use paper charts, sextant, and yes I do have a chronometer. I do also use the gps plotters etc..., however i don't leave my brain at home when I turn on the electronic devices and my knowledge goes beyond understanding how to operate an electronic device, I also plot on a paperchart every 2 hours. NOAA lost my vote when they began going armed and started boarding vessels.
Good ideas.

'cept for the last sentence. NOAA never had your vote, they didn't "began going armed and started boarding vessels" 'cuz that was the Coast Guard, now part of DHS.

Geez, 'dem mapmakers now have guns???

Questions for the "gang":

Why do you think this has evolved into an "either - or" discussion?

IIRC, even the oldest Loran and GPS unit manuals state something like: "A prudent mariner will not depend on only one form of navigation..." or something to that effect.

I was raised on Dutton's and Chapman's (Oh, NO!!! Books!!!). We can probably find them on Google'"olden bookies" along with Bowditch. On our Kindles. Or tablets. Or iPhones.

Not everyone has a laptop or three on board. I have a laptop, we bring it on board, have used it occasionally for navigating with our BU-353 dongle, but my small handheld chartplotter serves me well along with my overview paper charts, AND our chart books.

I agree with those who suggest that getting one heads outside the boat is a good thing.

27" (not 27') screens on smaller boats? Where do they find the space for a galley?

I've also wondered over the years how anyone could do a " instead of a ' --- it requires a Shift to go from ' to ".

I really enjoyed this discussion. Thanks.
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 22:07   #112
Wayfaring Mariner
 
captain58sailin's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Homer, AK is my home port
Boat: Skookum 53'
Posts: 4,045
Images: 5
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

I got news for you NOAA has officers that are armed and board vessels. Check their fisheries division.
__________________
" Wisdom; is your reward for surviving your mistakes"
captain58sailin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 02:09   #113
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,877
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkindredpdx View Post
So I don't have a Chartplotter, but do use OpenCPN and Paper Charts. My Magellan GPS is a verrrrrry old brick. I'd like to get a good simple handheld GPS mostly for sailing , but also for hiking etc. Any recommendations for a good value but quality brand and model.
Pick up a smart phone. It does everything a handheld GPS does plus a lot more. If you are concerned about water, get a waterproof case for it.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 09:57   #114
Registered User

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Western Wisconsin
Boat: O’Day Daysailer II, 17'
Posts: 572
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
...I was raised on Dutton's and Chapman's (Oh, NO!!! Books!!!). We can probably find them on Google'"olden bookies" along with Bowditch...
I have just discovered Dutton and Bowditch. From alibris.com I got a 1975 Volume 2 of Bowditch with instructions and log tables for celestial navigation (no need for a calculator), but find Dutton to be an easier read. The latest hard cover edition of Bowditch is 2002 for $14.45 and 896 pages on Amazon. Dutton is $37 for 2003 edition for 464 pages Well HEY, I have my boat out of water here in Wisconsin because that's what you have to do here because of the ice so what else am I going to do about sailing except read and maybe post on Cruisersforum. I am also setting up OpenCPN on a laptop. If I get desperate and want fiction, I read one of my wife's romance books.
__________________
westwinds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 12:04   #115
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by westwinds View Post
what else am I going to do about sailing except read and maybe post on Cruisersforum. I am also setting up OpenCPN on a laptop. If I get desperate and want fiction, I read one of my wife's romance books.
No need for books, this is a one-stop place!

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 12:49   #116
Registered User
 
jkindredpdx's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35'
Posts: 1,047
Images: 5
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Pick up a smart phone. It does everything a handheld GPS does plus a lot more. If you are concerned about water, get a waterproof case for it.
Oh yea, I have one of those too. . . but I thought iPhones (I'm not going to use the right terms here, so bare with me) used a form of GPS that is assisted by Cell Towers and didn't work reliably off satellite only? Anyone care to elaborate?
__________________
http://www.sednahr35.blogspot.com/ Jim K.
jkindredpdx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 13:03   #117
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Kimberton PA
Boat: Cabo Rico 38 / Bayfield 32
Posts: 573
Images: 1
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkindredpdx View Post
Oh yea, I have one of those too. . . but I thought iPhones (I'm not going to use the right terms here, so bare with me) used a form of GPS that is assisted by Cell Towers and didn't work reliably off satellite only? Anyone care to elaborate?
Smart phones *can* make use of assisted GPS features of the cell network they are attached to. If the phone is in it's cell network, it can get it's updated ephemeris data much more quickly than downloading it from the satellite(s). What this means is that if in the cell network, time to first fix will be much shorter than if not in the network. If not in the network, TTFF will be at least 30 seconds if the receiver needs all new ephemeris data. Subsequent fixes are fast. This has no bearing on using a smart phone as a chart plotter, as the GPS will be on the entire time. It 's generally only relevant when a fast fix is needed to track an emergency call. It's also helpful in urban canyon environments as receiving the full ephemeris can be a challenge there. So, your smart phone's GPS will work just fine when out of the cellular network.
__________________
Saltyhog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 13:14   #118
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkindredpdx View Post
Oh yea, I have one of those too. . . but I thought iPhones (I'm not going to use the right terms here, so bare with me) used a form of GPS that is assisted by Cell Towers and didn't work reliably off satellite only? Anyone care to elaborate?
Internet Myth, my iPhone GPS works very well 400 miles into the ATlantic.
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 15:12   #119
Registered User
 
jkindredpdx's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35'
Posts: 1,047
Images: 5
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Thanks. You saved me $ I can use for more important provisions, like bourbon and beer.
Cheers.
__________________
http://www.sednahr35.blogspot.com/ Jim K.
jkindredpdx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 15:50   #120
Registered User
 
rognvald's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Summer: In the land of Wooly Mammoths
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,252
Images: 2
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

The pros and cons of electronic vs. paper charts have been well stated by both sides. And, it is obvious from the sentiments expressed that the medium you choose for navigation reflects both your personality, skills and concept of sailing. Several years ago, I bought a Garmin chartplotter as an addition to my paper charts. It was never used as my primary plotting device but as a reference point in coastal waters to the fixes and DR track I kept on my paper charts. My chartplotter has been frequently inaccurate, especially along shore, and I trust my LOP's with a hand bearing compass more than the icon position showed on the electronic plotter. When sailing offshore, I use paper charts and a GPS to reference/validate my DR track and position fixes and I believe it is quite accurate. But, in the past, I have sailed many times with no electronics(including no depth sounder) and only by dead reckoning. My problem with electronic charts and really everything electronic is not that there is anything inherently wrong with them, perhaps just the opposite, but rather that it is just these things from which I seek to escape when I sail. The feel of a sturdy paper chart under hand, the copious notes and highlighted cautions, a simple drawing compass and parallel rulers that inch across the ocean in a rhythmic stride can never, for me, be replaced by the pulsing glow of the all knowing machine. But, my private world is one of music and words . . . and there lies the rub.
__________________

__________________
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra
rognvald is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cal, charts

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:13.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.