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Old 06-11-2013, 07:44   #91
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

I prefer paper charts because I understand them and can use them easily. I cannot seem to make Open Cpn do what I want, and having to zoom in and out a half-dozen times frustrates me no end. I could spend a few thousand dollars (if I had them) on 12-volt system to power a bigger laptop (running a netbook on it's own batteries for now), and on chart software, but then I'd have to learn how to use it. As I said, I already know how to use paper, and it doesn't mind the occasional coffee spill as much as my keyboard would. Is it lazyness that makes me unwilling to learn new stuff? yes, but as long as the old stuff continues to give perfect satisfaction, I see no reason to change horses.
However, I will make an offer to all who feel burdened by storing paper charts but don't want to add them to the landfill. Mail them to me, any and all of them, and I will rejoice to give them a good home. The older and more outdated the better, BTW--our last cruise was carried out where the newer "Metric," updated editions of charts lacked detail, and everyone lusted after the old Admiralty editions done in fathoms and fathom fractions, with far, far more detail than the current editions. Even so, the worst current paper issues were far better than the pathetic Open Cpn.
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:58   #92
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Funny, I saw it just the opposite. I have repeatedly stated I have no problem with others using paper charts, but the paper people keep implying that I can't navigate as well with them and that I am not a "real" or "serious" sailor. I haven't called anyone a Luddite or said anything about paper being bad or should be thrown away.

One thing about lightning strikes and paper charts with regards to DR - don't count on your compass either. Of the two mechanical compasses on our boat, one went completely haywire and the other was off in certain directions by as much as 40* following our strike. The two electronic compasses worked just fine BTW

The fact that following a lightning strike you stand a good chance of being without both a GPS, a knotmeter and a compass makes paper charts pretty useless as a fall-back.

Mark
Mark, my comment was not directed specifically at you. Totally agree about the magnetic compass after a strike. Like I wrote, I would not count on anything working or not working after a hard strike (as your own experience demonstrates). For position of local aids to navigation (buoys, bells, lights, ranges, etc.) I maintain that a simple paper chart, all on its own, would be of great use, even if it were somewhat out of date. That coupled with my own personal sense that I somehow get more from examination of a large chart, means I'll keep some on board. It's a balance thing. BTW, I enjoyed reading your blog.
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Old 06-11-2013, 08:04   #93
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Colemj:

If you've plans to come to the South Pacific, use your present setup to check the route from just outside the reef of Viti Levu (Fiji) on the SW side, where you'd exit if you checked out from Lautoka, to Coff's Hbr., NSW. If your chart shows Theva-i-rau (also known as Conway Reef), that route will be safe for you. Some electronic charts have it omitted (the vessel lost's skipper thought they'd struck an uncharted reef, very sad), and others show it. It shows on the international paper chart, too, of course, rather jumps out at one, actually. However, if you personally make that little check, you'll be safer out here.
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Old 06-11-2013, 08:29   #94
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Here is a little tid bit for you to ponder.

Our USA nav aids used to be just like Europe’s, Green Right Returning.

Then we had a little problem with German subs coming into our waterways, so the US government in it’s infinite wisdom changed all our US nav aids to red right returning, so the German subs would navigate on the wrong side and most likely run aground. A few subs did run aground. The US left that system in place as it was to expensive to change it back after the war.

A lot of foreigners coming into our US waters usually run aground for the first few weeks until they get their heads wrapped around our USA Red Right Returning nav aids

Red Right Returning nav aids under the IALA B standard used in North and South America.

Under the IALA A standard used in Europe, Africa and most of Asia, the colors are reversed.
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Old 06-11-2013, 08:41   #95
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Colemj:

If you've plans to come to the South Pacific, use your present setup to check the route from just outside the reef of Viti Levu (Fiji) on the SW side, where you'd exit if you checked out from Lautoka, to Coff's Hbr., NSW. If your chart shows Theva-i-rau (also known as Conway Reef), that route will be safe for you. Some electronic charts have it omitted (the vessel lost's skipper thought they'd struck an uncharted reef, very sad), and others show it. It shows on the international paper chart, too, of course, rather jumps out at one, actually. However, if you personally make that little check, you'll be safer out here.
I don't have specific charts for that region and we aren't planning for the Pacific for a few years yet. However, wherever we go, we check all chart accuracies with Google Earth and satellite photos. We overlay them as a transparent layer on our electronic charts and see exactly how accurate the charts are for any area.

On our general-purpose CM93 charts, it shows up as an underwater rock with a zone boxed around it called "Ceva I Ra", but not the name you give. Here is a satellite picture of it:

Mark
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Old 06-11-2013, 08:44   #96
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

I just noticed from the satellite picture that if you were an old polynesian navigator with no compass or chart, you would find that reef easily - look at the diffraction pattern around it!

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Old 06-11-2013, 08:44   #97
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

I'm glad you've got it on your charts.

There's actually enough land above water there that a 2 week long ham radio DX expedition went there one year recently.

I bet your Google earth overlay would help a lot with that.

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Old 06-11-2013, 08:53   #98
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Diverging slightly from the current arguments...

Has anyone factual evidence of a typical Casio-type watch being rendered inoperable by a lightning strike on a yacht? How about one stored in an improvised Faraday cage? And exactly why is a pressure cooker, made from fairly conductive Aluminium, not a functional Faraday cage? (I agree that microwave ovens and stove ovens are not adequate protection).

Not being argumentative here... serious questions!

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Old 06-11-2013, 09:03   #99
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

I have taken several lightening strikes and to date the most damage received has been a burned out card in my SSB antenna coupler. I have spoken with others whom have taken strikes that blew out the grounding plate on their vessel. US flagged commercial vessels still carry and use paper charts. At my last documentation renewal in June I was informed by the USCG that I would have to obtain my ECDIS endorsement within the next 3 years. Prior to this the USCG would not acknowledge ECDIS as a viable aid to navigation. The arguement of paper versus electronic is pointless. It all depends on who is doing the navigating. A good navigator is a good navigator regardless of the medium. Same is true of a bad navigator. I like and keep paper charts, I also use electronic charting, have been for years. I do like the electronic charting programs for planning and routing, have crossed the Atlantic a couple of times, close quarters navigation requires more focus and attention regardless the method of navigation.
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:25   #100
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Diverging slightly from the current arguments...

Has anyone factual evidence of a typical Casio-type watch being rendered inoperable by a lightning strike on a yacht? How about one stored in an improvised Faraday cage? And exactly why is a pressure cooker, made from fairly conductive Aluminium, not a functional Faraday cage? (I agree that microwave ovens and stove ovens are not adequate protection).

Not being argumentative here... serious questions!

Jim
All of my watches seem to have a dead battery every time I check them. In fact, all three were dead following our lightning strike! But they seem fine with new batteries. However, I only look at them once a year or so. I don't know why I have 3 watches on board. I haven't worn one in over 5 years.

If you actually use a watch, then I think it is pretty safe from lightning. If it is damaged by lightning while using it, I think you would have other worries…

I don't know about the pressure cooker. Perhaps the rubber gasket may be an issue? Perhaps it is just fine.

My only points around "protecting" devices have been that I have spoken to many people hit by lightning with "unprotected" devices being just fine. So I have been questioning the usefulness of "protection", not the effectiveness.

Also, our lightning strike was out of the blue - we had no reason to think we needed to shove things into a microwave/oven/pressure cooker before hand.

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Old 06-11-2013, 09:26   #101
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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I have taken several lightening strikes
Good lord man! I'm not going to Alaska…

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Old 06-11-2013, 09:33   #102
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Where I took my hits is in Nigeria, I have been hit there more times than anywhere in the world I have been. I also took a direct hit in del Carmen, Mexico. Before that no hits ever.
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:37   #103
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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Where I took my hits is in Nigeria
Hmmm, might find myself in Nigeria. Seems I have come into a bit of money from there…

Mark
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:41   #104
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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Hmmm, might find myself in Nigeria. Seems I have come into a bit of money from there…

Mark
Good one, Mark.
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Old 06-11-2013, 10:16   #105
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
All of my watches seem to have a dead battery every time I check them. In fact, all three were dead following our lightning strike! But they seem fine with new batteries. However, I only look at them once a year or so. I don't know why I have 3 watches on board. I haven't worn one in over 5 years.

If you actually use a watch, then I think it is pretty safe from lightning. If it is damaged by lightning while using it, I think you would have other worries…

I don't know about the pressure cooker. Perhaps the rubber gasket may be an issue? Perhaps it is just fine.

My only points around "protecting" devices have been that I have spoken to many people hit by lightning with "unprotected" devices being just fine. So I have been questioning the usefulness of "protection", not the effectiveness.

Also, our lightning strike was out of the blue - we had no reason to think we needed to shove things into a microwave/oven/pressure cooker before hand.

Mark
OK, thanks for that observation. I do wear a watch... otherwise how would I know what day it is? Also occasionally need it for tidal thoughts and so on. Batteries seem to last several years, and give warning about decay by dimming the backlight noticeably long before the time/display functions cease.

Obviously, my query was related to the assertions that one would need a mechanical chronometer to be able to do celestial after a destructive lightning strike. We do carry our old sextant and adequate tables for rough celestial nav, but I draw the line at a chronometer. Dockhead may have the free funds and space for one but I don't feel that I do (I share his admiration for them as works of art, though)!

Our pressure cookers are old Presto models, made from fairly thick cast aluminium. There is excellent metal to metal contact for just under 50% of the circumference of the lid, made through the locking tabs that hold the lid on under pressure. I'm pretty sure that the electric fields inside would be minimized with that degree of enclosure . Not so sure about more modern ones made of s/s and with different clamping systems... no opinion there.

As to the question of the day re paper vs electronic charting... I use both, understand both and appreciate the advantages of each one. I can't understand any serious navigator not agreeing with this attitude.

As a side note, all the talk about 27 inch displays... few cruising yachts have either the room, the budget or the available power to support such a thing. Smoke 'em if you have 'em, guys, but for most of us the best display we're likely to use is on a laptop, and this size and resolution do present functional limitations, at least for me.

Cheers,

Jim
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