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Old 05-11-2013, 18:33   #76
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Nah - I just watch the spreader camera on the tv… Mark
I must get one of those too... has been on my list for many years now
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Old 05-11-2013, 18:44   #77
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I think Dockhead is quite right that large format paper still has the edge over displays. Until display technology , like digital work tops and the like are common place , paper will remain a great way of displaying large complex data in a large format.

Doing planing for example on a 8" screen is just nonsense. I always use imray small scale charts for that.

Ultimately it will go all electronic , but as he says it isn't happening anytime soon.

For the moment paper has its place as a viable Backup to modern plotters

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Old 05-11-2013, 18:56   #78
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Who is using an 8" computer display? We have been discussing electronic planning and routing vs. paper. No one has confined it to an 8" chartplotter, and all examples have been with computers. I agree that an 8" screen is awful for planning and routing, not to mention the substandard user interfaces and computational capabilities of chartplotters.

We have an 8" chartplotter. I do no planning on it - just put routes on it made from the computer. It works well to have in the cockpit showing relative progress along the route, but that is it's sole function unless I choose to use it to bump or remove a local waypoint.

Do you have any safety, navigational, modal, contextual or comprehension problems using one of the current computer charting programs on a modern computer vs. using paper charts? That is an honest question, not a rhetorical one - maybe I'm just weird. Heck, I don't have much problem using the NOAA website chartviewer for planning.

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Old 05-11-2013, 18:57   #79
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

I forgot to mention - if one only has an 8" chartplotter, then I agree planning on paper is better.

But really, who doesn't have a computer onboard?

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Old 05-11-2013, 18:58   #80
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

About 6 months after 9/11 I had my feet propped up on the console and was playing with a GPS.

All of a sudden my position started jumping around, I was out to sea... I was 15 miles north. I tuned the radio to 16 and heard a pan pan, that the navy was doing some testing of the GPS system playing war games.

That is not to say, that having a chart plotter to display a chart isn't a boon to all humanity, but if you don't know that your position isn't your position then things can go sideways with a quickness... and that has stuck with me. These systems don't exist for "us" the general public to use...

The fact that we have access to them is fantastic, but the folks that built them can modify our positions. I decided that if I can't eyeball it, and it is un-marked then I can wait till day light to eyeball it because a GPS alone doesn't cut it.

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Old 05-11-2013, 19:00   #81
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

OK, fair point, but even with paper charts and a funky GPS system you are in the same boat as those with electronic charts and a funky GPS system.

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Old 06-11-2013, 03:41   #82
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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I am not an engineer myself, but I have several tens of them on my payroll.

We have struggled for 20 years to try to move over more and more to electronic forms of displaying and manipulating building plans, and we have achieved a certain amount of success. The key is very large monitors with very sophisticated controls operated by highly trained people. This is especially important in our particular case because our project teams are always scattered over a few countries and sometimes over a few continents, and we have to do meaningful work without being in the same room, pointing at the same piece of paper. I have spent more money on electronic means of displaying information, by far, over the years, than my boat cost.

But despite the large monitors, mega-expensive software, and highly trained operators, we are still a long way -- maybe even decades -- from entirely getting rid of the A0 size plotter output sheet, and for all the same reasons we have been discussing here. When you need to put a ruler down and see in detail what engages a particular line, for example, there is still nothing like having all the detail of all the zoom levels all at once, on one big sheet of paper. I have worked with architects of the level of, and including Norman Foster, and even with the tens of millions he has invested in IT, paper still abounds in his office, mountains of it, files lining the exposed concrete walls. There is a certain type of visualization which is still impossible without paper although, as I said, those days are probably numbered.

The display technology we have on boats is incomparably more primitive, than what we use in my office. I'm sure the technology will trickle down, but there is a long way to go.
Maybe you need to check out what the rest of the industry is doing. I work in traffic and other than a few antiquated small agencies, no one wants full size plans. The major agencies we work with have gone completely electronic. When I go to a plan review meeting what used to be stacks of plans has been replaced by laptops and projectors.

Occasionally, the old guys will ask for a half size set of prints but even they have given up on full size.

If you have room it's hard to beat a couple of big screens but I work probably 50% of the time with just a laptop and have no problem manipulating plans (or charts) with far more ease than a full size paper copy.

If I really need to see how two lines come together or to get details of a particular symbol nothing beats electronic where I can easily zoom in and click on the item in question to get full details.

I think cheap tablets are one of the big changes that will bring about the end of large paper printouts. Yeah, there will always be the occasional specialty use for paper but it's an outdated technology for charting.
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Old 06-11-2013, 03:51   #83
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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About 6 months after 9/11 I had my feet propped up on the console and was playing with a GPS.

All of a sudden my position started jumping around, I was out to sea... I was 15 miles north. I tuned the radio to 16 and heard a pan pan, that the navy was doing some testing of the GPS system playing war games.

That is not to say, that having a chart plotter to display a chart isn't a boon to all humanity, but if you don't know that your position isn't your position then things can go sideways with a quickness... and that has stuck with me. These systems don't exist for "us" the general public to use...

The fact that we have access to them is fantastic, but the folks that built them can modify our positions. I decided that if I can't eyeball it, and it is un-marked then I can wait till day light to eyeball it because a GPS alone doesn't cut it.

Zach
Please explain how a paper chart helps when you post incorrect gps position on the paper? If you are alert and paying attention to your surroundings, you have the same situation. In fact, if you are paying attention the electronic system has advantages. Most have a dead reckoning function you can activate that will make calculations for you. Since it is making the calculations continuously, in theory it should retain better accuracy than a once an hour estimate done by hand that is subject to math errors when calculated by hand.

You still have the electronic charts even if the gps system goes down completely.
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Old 06-11-2013, 04:40   #84
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

There still seems to confusion with people equating electronic mapping and GPS. They are not the same thing. There are some "chartplotters" that incorporate both sets of technology together. This is by no means universal and even then the maps will work without the GPS and vice versa.
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Old 06-11-2013, 05:55   #85
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

This is just about equal to a christian/atheist forum, LOL. I'm in Dockheads corner on this one. Maybe its my flying background but I really like large charts for planning. I also agree with others that if you carry paper charts in case of a lightning strike then you best have a sextant,watch and be able to use them otherwise its a waste of space.
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Old 06-11-2013, 05:56   #86
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

If both people are paying attention, and the guy with the electronic chart is keeping a written log of EP's each hour, then they will see it at the same time when they go to fill in the distance field. They would be in the same boat.

My boat couldn't go 15nm, tied up to a slip. My boat in an hour, still couldn't go 15nm under way, without a 6 knot current and a tail wind. Actually I take that back... On Trailer, all things are possible.

Fair disclosure: I am a caveman.
( You can get into a scrape, if you assume that way you see is what you get. I had an old CRT radar that would start up and lose the bow of the boat. Peer in the hood... I'm looking at the bridge, it is behind me! Turn it off... Turn it back on. Now the bridge is about where it should be!

I've had a garmin hand held chart plotter that had a short in the connection that wouldn't allow it to charge. It would turn on for about 10 minutes before requiring turning off and requiring the cord to be jiggled until it would turn on again.

My net book fried its solid state hard drive a few days ago. Which I have not had happen to paper charts. Spilled a pot of boiling cous cous on one, and after it dried, it was somewhat crusty and difficult to lay parallels for the hills in it... But unless they spontaneously combust they stick around fairly well. )


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Old 06-11-2013, 06:47   #87
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There still seems to confusion with people equating electronic mapping and GPS. They are not the same thing. There are some "chartplotters" that incorporate both sets of technology together. This is by no means universal and even then the maps will work without the GPS and vice versa.
I think you're right that this is the main confusion. Paper lovers hear "electronic charts" and equate that to the 4" black and white screen of their 7 year old chartplotter.

In fact most people are talking about the same exact charts as paper lovers just in electronic form viewed on any number of devices and in any number of sizes.

It's the looking forward as opposed to looking down that confuses people.

Surely an electronic chart on my 32" TV gives me just as much an overview as a paper chart.

The real hangup here is backups and redundancy. Anyone that owns true electronic charts has them backed up somewhere else and can easily access them. Not true for paper charts, which more often than not, are out of date by a good while.

The idea that a lightning strike would fry an iPad not plugged in with charts loaded on it is a fallacy and it is just as likely as all paper charts blowing overboard.

In this thread I see electronic chart advocates repeatedly talking about electronic charts and paper chart advocates equating that to a 6" Garmin G2 screen.

I also agree that this argument is as fruitless as an Atheist and a Priest debating.
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:01   #88
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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you are completely wrong and should not be writing about something that you have not got a clue.

my nephew this summer....
OK, let me amend that by stating all commercial shipping EXCEPT the US-flagged vessels (and they will be following suite very quickly).

Is that better for you?

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Old 06-11-2013, 07:14   #89
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

The most interesting thing I find in this entire discussion is the passion that the "Paper charts are dead!" folks seem to have to convince us all to recycle our paper. I really don't see this as a religious war. I truly do appreciate what e-charting brings to the (chart) table. I was designing glass cockpit avionics before the FAA was on-board with the concept, so I'm certainly not against the technology or even close to being a luddite. I simply recognize, that for me anyway, paper still brings something more to the chart table in some ways and circumstances. And all the arguments about lightning, geesh. I just really don't want to run a failure mode effects analysis of my entire ship-board systems and processes from the standpoint of mitigating a direct strike. I'll certainly take precautions for process and installation, if only to save me the hassle and cost of damage. But I'm not counting on *anything* in the even of a direct strike. I agree with Jedi on this, if you can't DR pilot your way in an emergency, take some classes. In the end, the most important processor on board's between your ears.
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:30   #90
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Funny, I saw it just the opposite. I have repeatedly stated I have no problem with others using paper charts, but the paper people keep implying that I can't navigate as well with them and that I am not a "real" or "serious" sailor. I haven't called anyone a Luddite or said anything about paper being bad or should be thrown away.

One thing about lightning strikes and paper charts with regards to DR - don't count on your compass either. Of the two mechanical compasses on our boat, one went completely haywire and the other was off in certain directions by as much as 40* following our strike. The two electronic compasses worked just fine BTW

The fact that following a lightning strike you stand a good chance of being without both a GPS, a knotmeter and a compass makes paper charts pretty useless as a fall-back.

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