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Old 05-11-2013, 12:05   #46
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

when all those wonderfull electronics get submerged in water atleast the paper chart will dry out and maybe those who can use them will find there way home happy sailing
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:07   #47
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

If you go with electronic charts only, then some methods for lightning protection are needed to prevent destruction of said charts. Also radios, GPS, quartz watch, alternator voltage regulator, maybe electronic controls for modern diesel engines (no mechanical fuel injection pumps on these engines. Navigation lights, what else?

Faraday cage as lightning protection - Wireless Service Providers | DSLReports Forums
Electronics protection aboard aircraft

Notes on grounding amateur and commercial radio installations.
Lightning ground for radio amateur and commercial radio installarions

Building an Effective Faraday Cage to Protect Against Lightning Strikes
Steel box (faraday cage) to protect electronics. Has to be metal a magnet will stick to.

Alpha Delta Communications
Grounding options for lightening including coax cable protection
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:08   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
+1!!

Notwithstanding that, however, I have seriously considered acquiring a mechanical chronometer, a thing of beauty even if I never use it . . .


This is an ultimately pointless discussion, which we have had many times, but I will say one more time:

You cannot plan a passage on a screen, like you can on paper. The reason is that computers are not (yet) able to show all scales at once, like paper does, so that all hazards over a whole route are all visible at once. There is just no way to get the orientation from electronic charts, that you get from holding the paper chart in your hand. I imagine technology will eventually eliminate this advantage (who thought we would be reading electronic books?), but so far it has not.

The gigantic disadvantage of paper is that it is so damned hard to keep it up to date, so I use this strategy:

I use Navionics Fresh Data to have up to the minute up to date electronic charts. I update the electronic charts before any major passage.

I update my paper charts haphazardly -- when I can or feel like it (it is a very pleasant activity when you have time for it).

Otherwise I just use the old ones; any important updates will be visible on the electronic charts. As Ann said -- the rocks don't tend to move much, and most of the hydrography is decades old in any case. But I practically never sail anywhere for which I don't have a paper chart; it makes me nervous, so much so that I get cold sweats. Which means I have spent thousands on charts over the years, and have a fair challenge to store them all on board.

Incidentally, many thanks and much praise to one CF member who gave me a whole set of full size Admiralty charts covering practically the whole North Sea, surplus from his commercial ship, some of which were only months out of date, what a treasure trove! What masterpieces! I have spent many happy hours just reading, studying and fondling them. A whole sea distilled into a beautiful pile of paper -- try that with electronic charts! Now I am totally ready to sail the North Sea, and without cold sweats!


Like one of the posters above, it is my experience that most really good sailors like to spend some time with paper, at least before sailing in an area which is new to them.
x10

Like many here, I'm an engineer. I've designed firmware for avionics, medical diagnostics/imaging, and asset tracking devices. In all cases, the challenge is in presenting the data. In spite of all my day to day work with these things, I still find that electronic presentation is less useful than hard copy presentation. You mention ebooks. I agree that for most recreational reading, ebooks are wonderful. I have a Kindle and most of my fiction reading is on that platform. It's great for serial, one page after the next, reading. However for technical reference material, nothing beats paper. I often print a paper copy of data sheets. I can flip through the pages and almost instantly find what I need. My hand written notes have meaning to me months or years later. I can quickly flip back and forth between 2 or more pages. Ultimately, the paper provides a more broadband experience and allows me to more quickly digest the information rather than fighting with the presentation medium. I know there are ways to do all these things with a pdf reader, but it's just not organic and generally disrupts the my process. The same can be said of paper vs. electronic charts. That broadband view of a large chart imparts information that you're not even aware you're seeing. i can recall making the notes I see and the tracks I've plotted. Electronically recorded tracks are just one more computer generated graphic. It's not immediately obvious to me the context they were made. Perhaps it's just how I'm wired, but I definitely get more from the paper. I agree that the best (at least for me) is a combination of paper and electronics. Their use in conjunction fills all my needs. Perhaps in the future, large format electronic presentation technology will equal paper. I'm hopeful, but until then, I'm keeping my paper.
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:10   #49
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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Originally Posted by nagrom snoyl View Post
when all those wonderfull electronics get submerged in water atleast the paper chart will dry out and maybe those who can use them will find there way home happy sailing
That would be an impossible event for us, since several of our electronic sources are waterproof. I suppose the entire boat could sink and take them all down to the bottom, but then I wouldn't have any need for navigating after that.

Maybe those paper charts will blow away and those who can use electronics can still find their way home.

See how this works?

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Old 05-11-2013, 12:15   #50
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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Originally Posted by westwinds View Post
If you go with electronic charts only, then some methods for lightning protection are needed to prevent destruction of said charts. Also radios, GPS, quartz watch, alternator voltage regulator, maybe electronic controls for modern diesel engines (no mechanical fuel injection pumps on these engines. Navigation lights, what else?

Faraday cage as lightning protection - Wireless Service Providers | DSLReports Forums
Electronics protection aboard aircraft

Notes on grounding amateur and commercial radio installations.
Lightning ground for radio amateur and commercial radio installarions

Building an Effective Faraday Cage to Protect Against Lightning Strikes
Steel box (faraday cage) to protect electronics. Has to be metal a magnet will stick to.

Alpha Delta Communications
Grounding options for lightening including coax cable protection
Again, WE HAVE TAKEN A DIRECT AND CATASTROPHIC LIGHTNING STRIKE!

No one seems to believe that we navigated just fine by electronic means afterwards.

Please read my post regarding my hypothesis on what it takes to lower the probability of being without electronic navigation to near zero. I don't think it takes that much, and it does not take extreme faraday cage measures.

Point me to an example where all electronic devices not connected in any way to a ship's electrical system were fried by a lighting strike. Maybe some were, but I'm interested in an example where more than 3 independent navigational devices were lost.

And I'm not being argumentative with this - I really want those examples as data to refine my hypothesis or prove it totally wrong.

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Old 05-11-2013, 12:26   #51
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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Perhaps it's just how I'm wired, but I definitely get more from the paper. I agree that the best (at least for me) is a combination of paper and electronics. Their use in conjunction fills all my needs. Perhaps in the future, large format electronic presentation technology will equal paper. I'm hopeful, but until then, I'm keeping my paper.
This is correct - your brain is trained for horizontal paper presentation. It is Pavlovian though, not hard-wired, and can be trained differently.

Over time, my brain retrained for the vertical presentation of electronic (vector) charts where I easily zoom in and out with a pinch motion while data stacks vertically in my brain. I don't have any problem remembering what the overview looked like 2 seconds ago as I check for details. And vice versa - when looking at an overview, I don't forget the details from 2 seconds ago.

Of course, I can only use a RPN calculator, so I admit my brain has been working this way for years.

I also find not having to paw through a stack of charts to pull out the ones I need and then having to swap them back and forth is a freedom of electronic charting.

And I never have problems with electronic charts in charting over the transitions between different charts.

As well as my electronic charts never curl up on me or curl over the rock holding them down.

And I get to use my chart table for entirely different purposes now!

To make blanket statements about what one "cannot do" with electronic charts, or that electronic charts are "no good" for this or that compared to paper is incorrect. You can ONLY make that statement about yourself, and not as a universal truth.

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Old 05-11-2013, 12:27   #52
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

By "it is pavlovian" I meant the learned response, not your brain!

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Old 05-11-2013, 12:44   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj


To make blanket statements about what one "cannot do" with electronic charts, or that electronic charts are "no good" for this or that compared to paper is incorrect. You can ONLY make that statement about yourself, and not as a universal truth.

Mark
Sorry, but you can indeed make an objective statement about this, which is a universal truth. An Admiralty size chart contains three orders of magnitude (maybe four) more information than any computer screen, Full HD or not, can show. The electronic chart has all the same information, but as the expert on the subject who posted above said, it cannot be presented. So there are a number of useful things which can be done with a paper chart which still cannot be done with an electronic one, essential things. That's a cold, hard, objective, "universal", as you say, fact.

I am not a Luddite. I love marine electronics and spent a few tens of k's completely redoing mine last winter. I have no doubt that the day will come, when an electronic display method will surpass paper. It will be a large, ultra-high resolution display, I guess, with an innovative navigation method. When that day comes, I'll haul the paper off my boat and relegate it to my library at home for nostalgic purposes. But that day has not come yet, and seems to still be a long time in coming.
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Old 05-11-2013, 13:14   #54
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Its true that small screen plotters and the like are a restricted viewing form. Put up a chart on a 27' IPS iMac screen and theres lots of advantages over paper with none of the disadvantages , you can do large scale planning zoom in to great detail ( which on paper is hard to do , as with vector charts , I have essentially several charts in one)

the issue is display hardware current on boats , not the issue of paper. The digital format is inherently superior, but whats displaying it may not be

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Old 05-11-2013, 13:14   #55
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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Sorry, but you can indeed make an objective statement about this, which is a universal truth. An Admiralty size chart contains three orders of magnitude (maybe four) more information than any computer screen, Full HD or not, can show. The electronic chart has all the same information, but as the expert on the subject who posted above said, it cannot be presented. So there are a number of useful things which can be done with a paper chart which still cannot be done with an electronic one, essential things. That's a cold, hard, objective, "universal", as you say, fact.
I'm not sure who the expert on the subject is you refer to. One poster said he was an engineer designing firmware for things. That isn't an expert on this.

I just showed you an example of a paper chart that doesn't present all of the information needed for safe navigation. You simply point to one example where it does and call that a universal truth. Go ahead - show me how to safely navigate on that single chart I gave you. You can't - you need 2 or three of them to do so. And it is only a distance of 24nm.

I think you should double check your math or reign in your enthusiasm regarding 3 or 4 more orders of magnitude of information on paper charts. 10,000 times the information density? Really? Prove that.

And don't confuse pixels, etc with information. Usable information is what counts. If you can't see it, or need a smaller scale chart for it to be useful, then it is not "data" on a paper chart.

You may also want to check the useful information on electronic charts. Mine show a lot of data that are not available at all on paper charts. Whole paragraphs of data show up in a side box or mouse over. And my chartplotter and computer charting programs "run" my routes as I make them and warn me about anything I miss before I even double check my work.

Ever make a charting, transcription or transposition error on paper charts? Did they catch it for you?

I have made the case that any of these supposed "missing" data are presented with electronic charts - just not in the way your brain is trained to accept them.

But you insist that I, personally, cannot use electronic charts with the perspective, information density presentation, etc that I can with paper charts. You call it a "cold, hard, objective, "universal", as you say, fact."

That is pretty presumptuous and completely impossible for you to prove. Maybe I don't think you can use paper charts as well as you can use electronic.

You have avoided answering any of the sticky points I have made that intrude on your protected beliefs. Instead, you just say that what you believe true for yourself is a cold hard reality.

I would be the last person to call you a Luddite, and bringing this up is a diversionary tactic in leu of addressing the difficult questions I pose. The amount of electronics on your boat has no bearing at all on whether I, and others, can safely use electronic charts as well as or better than paper charts. I never gave them a thought, but you somehow drew parallels.

And I didn't even bring up all of the commercial ships in the world. Do you feel the same about them not carrying any paper charts and doing all of their planning and navigating on electronic versions? If so, that's a pretty bold statement.

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Old 05-11-2013, 13:19   #56
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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Its true that small screen plotters and the like are a restricted viewing form. Put up a chart on a 27' IPS iMac screen and theres lost of advantages over paper with none of the disadvantages , you can do large scale planning zoom in to great detail ( which on paper is hard to do , as with vectors , I have essentially several charts in one)

the issue is display hardware current on boats , not the issue of paper. The digital format is inherently superior, but whats displaying it may not be

dave
We have been discussing route planning and plotting on electronic vs. paper in regards to safety. For a chartplotter, we simply send our computer planned and plotted routes to it, if we use it at all.

I find my 15" macbook pro display more than adequate for this purpose. I think I would find a 27" screen would cause me google eyes and neck cramp unless I got far enough back from it.

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Old 05-11-2013, 13:29   #57
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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This is correct - your brain is trained for horizontal paper presentation. It is Pavlovian though, not hard-wired, and can be trained differently.

No, I have no problem with transitioning between vertical or horizontal presentations. A large paper chart still presents in the same broadband manner whether on the wall or table.

Over time, my brain retrained for the vertical presentation of electronic (vector) charts where I easily zoom in and out with a pinch motion while data stacks vertically in my brain. I don't have any problem remembering what the overview looked like 2 seconds ago as I check for details. And vice versa - when looking at an overview, I don't forget the details from 2 seconds ago.

Of course, I can only use a RPN calculator, so I admit my brain has been working this way for years.

I can use either, but I Prefer RPN as it works more closely to to how I naturally think. Again, a more organic experience
I also find not having to paw through a stack of charts to pull out the ones I need and then having to swap them back and forth is a freedom of electronic charting.

And I never have problems with electronic charts in charting over the transitions between different charts.

As well as my electronic charts never curl up on me or curl over the rock holding them down.

I never said there were no benefits to e-charts. I fact I think I said I prefer to use both. In many ways (you've mentioned several)e-charts are superior. But not in all ways.

And I get to use my chart table for entirely different purposes now!

To make blanket statements about what one "cannot do" with electronic charts, or that electronic charts are "no good" for this or that compared to paper is incorrect. You can ONLY make that statement about yourself, and not as a universal truth.

I don't think I made any blanket statements at all. I simply stated my preference in certain contexts. I think I also tried to explain why I have that preference, and how I'd expect others also might have those preferences.
Mark
I don't think you're going to convince me or others to give up our paper. I think I've explained a couple of reasons I like paper, but there are also the more intangible things. I just really like looking at a good chart. There is so much information there. Sometimes, just seeing it all reminds me to check something I may have forgotten was relevant in a given circumstance. I know I'm not explaining it well, I guess it's just a human thing.
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Old 05-11-2013, 13:31   #58
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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I find my 15" macbook pro display more than adequate for this purpose. I think I would find a 27" screen would cause me google eyes and neck cramp unless I got far enough back from it.
I sit in front of it , unto 10 hours a day at times, it the best most fantastic display screen on the market. No eye strain, razor sharp, rock steady, awesome.

to paraphrase Ferris Bueller " Apple 27", accept no substitute"

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Old 05-11-2013, 13:34   #59
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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I'm not sure who the expert on the subject is you refer to. One poster said he was an engineer designing firmware for things. That isn't an expert on this.

I just showed you an example of a paper chart that doesn't present all of the information needed for safe navigation. You simply point to one example where it does and call that a universal truth. Go ahead - show me how to safely navigate on that single chart I gave you. You can't - you need 2 or three of them to do so. And it is only a distance of 24nm.

I think you should double check your math or reign in your enthusiasm regarding 3 or 4 more orders of magnitude of information on paper charts. 10,000 times the information density? Really? Prove that.

And don't confuse pixels, etc with information. Usable information is what counts. If you can't see it, or need a smaller scale chart for it to be useful, then it is not "data" on a paper chart.

You may also want to check the useful information on electronic charts. Mine show a lot of data that are not available at all on paper charts. Whole paragraphs of data show up in a side box or mouse over. And my chartplotter and computer charting programs "run" my routes as I make them and warn me about anything I miss before I even double check my work.

Ever make a charting, transcription or transposition error on paper charts? Did they catch it for you?

I have made the case that any of these supposed "missing" data are presented with electronic charts - just not in the way your brain is trained to accept them.

But you insist that I, personally, cannot use electronic charts with the perspective, information density presentation, etc that I can with paper charts. You call it a "cold, hard, objective, "universal", as you say, fact."

That is pretty presumptuous and completely impossible for you to prove. Maybe I don't think you can use paper charts as well as you can use electronic.

You have avoided answering any of the sticky points I have made that intrude on your protected beliefs. Instead, you just say that what you believe true for yourself is a cold hard reality.

I would be the last person to call you a Luddite, and bringing this up is a diversionary tactic in leu of addressing the difficult questions I pose. The amount of electronics on your boat has no bearing at all on whether I, and others, can safely use electronic charts as well as or better than paper charts. I never gave them a thought, but you somehow drew parallels.

And I didn't even bring up all of the commercial ships in the world. Do you feel the same about them not carrying any paper charts and doing all of their planning and navigating on electronic versions? If so, that's a pretty bold statement.

Mark
This is a pretty aggressive statement. Aggression and wrongness usually accompany one another in equal proportions -- this is a remarkable law of forum discussions.

My Navionics charts have I think 9 levels of zoom. Something like the 5th level corresponds to what you see on a medium scale Admiralty chart. The Admiralty chart has every single tiny bit of information which the highest level of zoom of the Navionics chart has. But the highest level of zoom on the chart plotter display shows only a 2 cable by 2 cable (roughly) area, whereas the Admiralty chart shows everything from the Needles to Handfast Point, an area of what, 90 square miles? You can do the math yourself. 0.04 square nautical miles versus 90 square miles is 0.0444%, between four and five orders of magnitude, I think, or between three and four, I am in bed and not fully math capable at the moment, but in any case, many orders of magnitude and not comparable at all.

Again, this is a silly argument. As Dave (GoBoatingNow) said above correctly -- electronic charting is inherently superior -- I think we all have to agree about that. Eventually we will all throw our paper charts away (or lovingly preserve them, as I will) -- it's just a matter of time. But not yet.

The fact that some given passage might need three or four paper charts doesn't prove anything. It's still three or four charts, versus three or four hundred zooms, unzooms, and scrolls, on today's chart plotters, during the course of which you will inevitably lose the plot and fail to gain the orientation you need. Again, emphasis on "today's" chart plotters. You absolutely cannot put a ruler on one of today's chart plotters, and see every hazard which is going to appear on your particular rhumb line, but you can do this on the paper chart. Someday soon, this problem will be overcome, I am absolutely sure.
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Old 05-11-2013, 13:39   #60
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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Again, WE HAVE TAKEN A DIRECT AND CATASTROPHIC LIGHTNING STRIKE!

...Point me to an example where all electronic devices not connected in any way to a ship's electrical system were fried by a lighting strike. Maybe some were, but I'm interested in an example where more than 3 independent navigational devices were lost...
Mark
Lightning, Flash, BANG, Your Boat's Been Hit - Now What - Seaworthy - BoatUS
Here is an article stating that all electronic devices on a boat can be destroyed.

Lightning-Proof Your Boat | Discover Boating
Another all electronics destroyed article

SGEB-17/SG071: Lightning & Sailboats
Lightning and Sailboats, general information
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