Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-11-2013, 08:58   #31
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
I guess, I am just a dinosaur, I use paper charts, sextant, and yes I do have a chronometer. I do also use the gps plotters etc..., however i don't leave my brain at home when I turn on the electronic devices and my knowledge goes beyond understanding how to operate an electronic device, I also plot on a paperchart every 2 hours. NOAA lost my vote when they began going armed and started boarding vessels.
Oh, I agree that one should be fully capable to navigate using paper and pencil. A capable navigator can. But I think you will be in a less than 1 percent that has a time piece that is independent of electricity.

I find the whole discussion hilarious really. We're talking about emergency situations and anybody out there should be able to find land within a week or two of sailing with nothing than the sun and moon to navigate with. And every boat out there should be provisioned to last at least that long without shopping runs. And the crew should be able to find a way through the reefs into an anchorage. This means that anything is good enough for emergency navigation.
__________________

__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 09:14   #32
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,719
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Nick, you will surely laugh at me, but I belong to the school of the ring-less pressure cooker with watch and GPS secured therein, in the ships oven.

Ann
__________________

__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 09:21   #33
Wayfaring Mariner
 
captain58sailin's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Homer, AK is my home port
Boat: Skookum 53'
Posts: 4,045
Images: 5
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

It is only weird if it doesn't work. I agree s/v Jedi, if you pick a direction and stick to it eventually you will make land fall. In Alaska we clear the Kenai peninsula and head SSW and end up in Hawaii, and if all else fails, follow the jet trails. I don't have a problem with sailing as long as it takes to reach the shore, for me it is the journey, not the getting there.
__________________
" Wisdom; is your reward for surviving your mistakes"
captain58sailin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 10:16   #34
Registered User
 
jkindredpdx's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35'
Posts: 1,047
Images: 5
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

40 years ago I proclaimed calculators would lead to the downfall of our society... 35 years as an IT professional and I still believe it BTW, corporations predicted the elimination of paper reports 20 years ago.

Not so many years ago adamant sailors denounced digital navigation as unreliable and foolhardy... I have electric tools. I also have pencil, paper, chisels, planes, rasps, and hand saws. I don't need to choose either/or, I get to use both.
__________________
http://www.sednahr35.blogspot.com/ Jim K.
jkindredpdx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 10:21   #35
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chesapeake Region and Maine
Boat: 42' Bob Perry sloop
Posts: 4,038
Images: 4
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Nick is a lot smarter than that. I don't believe he believes that his advice to "just head toward land" without benefit of paper or other charts or other instruments (like radar) is a really workable solution, except in certain situations.

It first supposes you know where the nearest safe landfall is....without rocks or shallows, or islets or peninsulas or other obstructions.

It also supposes you really know where you are/were when the GPS/chartplotter failed. Maybe, but if you're the kind of gal or guy without paper charts of some sort aboard, and you don't regularly log your position periodically, then you aren't likely to know where you are.

At the moment, there are upwards of 150 sailboats preparing to get underway to sail from Hampton/Norfolk VA to the BVI. That's a 1,500nm trip, going way offshore.

Imagine losing your GPS enroute due to electrical failure, EMI from lightning, flooding, dropping, or any other reason. Say you're on I65 about two days south of Bermuda. Are you now just going to "head for land"? I think not.

Paper charts still make sense for many sailors, especially the prudent, more experienced ones with real navigational ability. They always will, no matter how many GPS units, chartplotters, iPhones, iPads or other such electronic devices you have on board.

NOAA did not give up paper charts.

They will continue to do the work needed to make good paper and electronic charts for mariners to download at will.

Moreover, NOAA didn't actually print the big paper charts. These were printed by the Federal Aviation Agency (FAA), which recently informed NOAA that because of sequestration and other budget constraints they were no longer able to print the nautical charts.

And while a paper chart isn't going to help you much in mid-ocean (neither will a chartplotter), it damn well will as you're choosing a landfall and approaching land. Once there, e.g., in the Virgin Islands, a handy chartbook is invaluable for planning your cruising....much easier than a chartplotter.

Bill
__________________
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 10:42   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,890
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
Nick is a lot smarter than that. I don't believe he believes that his advice to "just head toward land" without benefit of paper or other charts or other instruments (like radar) is a really workable solution, except in certain situations.

It first supposes you know where the nearest safe landfall is....without rocks or shallows, or islets or peninsulas or other obstructions.

It also supposes you really know where you are/were when the GPS/chartplotter failed. Maybe, but if you're the kind of gal or guy without paper charts of some sort aboard, and you don't regularly log your position periodically, then you aren't likely to know where you are.

At the moment, there are upwards of 150 sailboats preparing to get underway to sail from Hampton/Norfolk VA to the BVI. That's a 1,500nm trip, going way offshore.

Imagine losing your GPS enroute due to electrical failure, EMI from lightning, flooding, dropping, or any other reason. Say you're on I65 about two days south of Bermuda. Are you now just going to "head for land"? I think not.

Paper charts still make sense for many sailors, especially the prudent, more experienced ones with real navigational ability. They always will, no matter how many GPS units, chartplotters, iPhones, iPads or other such electronic devices you have on board.


Bill
If you set up the chart plotter, hook it into the autopilot and never look at it again or pay attention to any landmarks...I agree, you will have no clue if the electronics fail.

Assuming you are paying even a modest amount of attention, you should have a pretty good idea of where you are and what direction to head for a safe harbor. Obviously, you are going to want to wait it out if you would otherwise arrive late night during storm but with reasonable caution, yes, you can safely make landfall in many areas. It may not be the shortest route but it can certainly be done with reasonable safety.

Then again the odds of having all the electronics go out is so low, its about as likely as all your charts being blown overboard.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 11:02   #37
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,764
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Nick, you will surely laugh at me, but I belong to the school of the ring-less pressure cooker with watch and GPS secured therein, in the ships oven.

Ann
+1!!

Notwithstanding that, however, I have seriously considered acquiring a mechanical chronometer, a thing of beauty even if I never use it . . .


This is an ultimately pointless discussion, which we have had many times, but I will say one more time:

You cannot plan a passage on a screen, like you can on paper. The reason is that computers are not (yet) able to show all scales at once, like paper does, so that all hazards over a whole route are all visible at once. There is just no way to get the orientation from electronic charts, that you get from holding the paper chart in your hand. I imagine technology will eventually eliminate this advantage (who thought we would be reading electronic books?), but so far it has not.

The gigantic disadvantage of paper is that it is so damned hard to keep it up to date, so I use this strategy:

I use Navionics Fresh Data to have up to the minute up to date electronic charts. I update the electronic charts before any major passage.

I update my paper charts haphazardly -- when I can or feel like it (it is a very pleasant activity when you have time for it).

Otherwise I just use the old ones; any important updates will be visible on the electronic charts. As Ann said -- the rocks don't tend to move much, and most of the hydrography is decades old in any case. But I practically never sail anywhere for which I don't have a paper chart; it makes me nervous, so much so that I get cold sweats. Which means I have spent thousands on charts over the years, and have a fair challenge to store them all on board.

Incidentally, many thanks and much praise to one CF member who gave me a whole set of full size Admiralty charts covering practically the whole North Sea, surplus from his commercial ship, some of which were only months out of date, what a treasure trove! What masterpieces! I have spent many happy hours just reading, studying and fondling them. A whole sea distilled into a beautiful pile of paper -- try that with electronic charts! Now I am totally ready to sail the North Sea, and without cold sweats!


Like one of the posters above, it is my experience that most really good sailors like to spend some time with paper, at least before sailing in an area which is new to them.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 11:18   #38
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
Nick is a lot smarter than that. I don't believe he believes that his advice to "just head toward land" without benefit of paper or other charts or other instruments (like radar) is a really workable solution, except in certain situations.
I didn't read Nick's post in the light you did. He specifically mentioned emergency situations and emergency navigation. A paper chart won't help you near land if you don't know where you are near that land. Once a coast has been closed, there are myriad ways of receiving navigation assistance to get into a harbor region.

Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
It also supposes you really know where you are/were when the GPS/chartplotter failed. Maybe, but if you're the kind of gal or guy without paper charts of some sort aboard, and you don't regularly log your position periodically, then you aren't likely to know where you are.
Even if you have paper charts - if you fail to log your position periodically, you won't know where you are. It has nothing to do with electronics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
Imagine losing your GPS enroute due to electrical failure, EMI from lightning, flooding, dropping, or any other reason. Say you're on I65 about two days south of Bermuda. Are you now just going to "head for land"? I think not.
I don't have to imagine it - I described above experiencing this exact problem. I also described how it was solved and made a hypothesis formed from data regarding how to ensure your scenario never happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
Paper charts still make sense for many sailors, especially the prudent, more experienced ones with real navigational ability. They always will, no matter how many GPS units, chartplotters, iPhones, iPads or other such electronic devices you have on board.
Thank you for the back-handed slap in the face! I guess I am not prudent, have little experience and no real navigational ability. I didn't realize the only thing separating me from "real" sailors and navigators was my lack of paper charts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
And while a paper chart isn't going to help you much in mid-ocean (neither will a chartplotter), it damn well will as you're choosing a landfall and approaching land. Once there, e.g., in the Virgin Islands, a handy chartbook is invaluable for planning your cruising....much easier than a chartplotter.
News flash - electronic charts will help you there also. They don't stop being useful at any time. Having sailed the VI many times, I find the chartbook a pain in the tradewinds as the pages flip all over and the book slides down from the perch it is on. The chartplotter is sooooo much easier.

I find it amusing that all of the arguments put forth by the paper brigade are all based on the idea that electronic charts and navigation forces go hand in hand with never keeping track of where one is, planning routes straight across land and other hazards, watching movies and sleeping instead of keeping a watch, and many other bad practices.

I was also told that the very act of listening to rock music will cause me to make such bad decisions in my life that I will end up a destitute under a bridge.

Some people claim that playing a game of gin rummy will lead straight to gambling addiction and alcoholism.

I can name many other non-sequitor and non-causal combinations.

You guys are smart people - can't we take the causal relationship between electronic charts and stupid people off the above list?

If not, I will start posting examples of people doing stupid things with only paper charts on board…


Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 11:27   #39
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
You cannot plan a passage on a screen, like you can on paper. The reason is that computers are not (yet) able to show all scales at once, like paper does, so that all hazards over a whole route are all visible at once.
I strongly disagree with your first sentence, and you are just plain dead wrong on your second sentence. I will leave to you the exercise of plotting a route on a large scale chart that takes you from a marina in one harbor to a marina in the next while also showing you all of the hazards over that route at once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Like one of the posters above, it is my experience that most really good sailors like to spend some time with paper, at least before sailing in an area which is new to them.
Thank you. Like Bill, you seem intent on defining "really good sailors" based on unrelated criteria you hold dear.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 11:48   #40
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Dockhead, Here is your exercise for navigating with a single chart.

The attached picture is a large scale chart showing my old stomping grounds. Please plan me a route free of navigation hazards from my old mooring in the blue circle on the mainland to my favorite anchorage on Block Island 24nm away in the second blue circle.

This should be easy, because this is the single chart that shows both endpoints and it is unfamiliar to you.

Oh, I made this easier for you because I zoomed in on only the portion of this chart that is of interest to the navigational exercise.

I'm not a really good sailor, and when I lived in this area, it took me two and sometimes three paper charts to navigate it safely. And when I switched charts to plot one area, I lost the others. I really would benefit from knowledge on how to do it with just one.

BTW, my computer shows all of the scales at once when I simply pinch my fingers in and out on the trackpad. It is easier and actually works over using a magnifying glass on a paper chart (which still won't help you on this exercise).

Mark
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Block Island large scale.jpg
Views:	89
Size:	127.6 KB
ID:	69895  
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 11:48   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 534
Not totally on subject but would you use cm93 to navigate somewhere remote? I'm planning a trip to Newfoundland next summer. Canadian charts are crazy expensive. I have cm93 but a bit paranoid about using it exclusively.
__________________
sully75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 11:52   #42
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,764
Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj

I strongly disagree with your first sentence, and you are just plain dead wrong on your second sentence. I will leave to you the exercise of plotting a route on a large scale chart that takes you from a marina in one harbor to a marina in the next while also showing you all of the hazards over that route at once.

Thank you. Like Bill, you seem intent on defining "really good sailors" based on unrelated criteria you hold dear.

Mark
Let's start with the last proposition. It is an empirical observation. It is a limited sample size; I don't claim to have known every navigator who ever lived. The really capable navigators I know all use paper. Does that prove anything? No, just one data point.

First proposition - I am certainly not wrong, that electronic charts don't show all scales at once. They emphatically do not, and it is a huge disadvantage. The buoys which mark the Swash Channel leading to Poole Harbor, for example. They appear only at the highest magnification; you can't see a way across Christchurch Bay which leads to the entrance of the channel; incredibly, you can't even see the whole channel in one screen - the buoys disappear. The only way to plan a passage without paper is scroll, zoom, unzoom, scroll, zoom, unzoom, scroll, etc, etc, etc - very awkward, and you still don't get an overview. You have to put down waypoints at key points just to see anything. Sorry, but this is a simple fact.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 11:55   #43
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

CM93 were based on commercial charts, so they tend to be less accurate outside of the more commercial routes and areas. However, the Canadian charts may also be inaccurate if the data were collected by La Salle with no subsequent update.

Your best bet is to use Google Earth to make charts of the regions of interest and overlay them on the CM93 charts to see how accurate they are. OpenCPN has a plug in that makes this easy.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 11:57   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 3,541
Quote:
Originally Posted by sully75 View Post
Not totally on subject but would you use cm93 to navigate somewhere remote? I'm planning a trip to Newfoundland next summer. Canadian charts are crazy expensive. I have cm93 but a bit paranoid about using it exclusively.
Cm93 on it's own maybe not. But combined with Google earth, checking here..
http://www.navionics.com/en/webapp
Small scale area chart and cruising guide, chatting with other cruisers, photocopying anchorage charts etc etc you can get a good idea of the area. IMHO. Even on their own apart from some bouyage changes occasionally I've found cm93 to be accurate. But mostly I don’t trust anything completely
__________________
conachair is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 11:58   #45
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Let's start with the last proposition. It is an empirical observation. It is a limited sample size; I don't claim to have known every navigator who ever lived. The really capable navigators I know all use paper. Does that prove anything? No, just one data point.

First proposition - I am certainly not wrong, that electronic charts don't show all scales at once. They emphatically do not, and it is a huge disadvantage. The buoys which mark the Swash Channel leading to Poole Harbor, for example. They appear only at the highest magnification; you can't see a way across Christchurch Bay which leads to the entrance of the channel; incredibly, you can't even see the whole channel in one screen - the buoys disappear. The only way to plan a passage without paper is scroll, zoom, unzoom, scroll, zoom, unzoom, scroll, etc, etc, etc - very awkward, and you still don't get an overview. You have to put down waypoints at key points just to see anything. Sorry, but this is a simple fact.
I didn't say electronic charts showed everything at once. The statement that paper charts do show this is wrong. Look at my example. Yes, you picked an example where a single paper chart did show you everything you need. I can pick a similar example of a vector chart.

Electronic raster charts are no different than the paper versions - they are just "pictures" of the paper versions. Are you going to argue that things disappear on those?

Mark
__________________

__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cal, charts

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:11.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.