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Old 30-10-2013, 20:27   #16
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
Digital charts are no-doubt popular but the folks I meet, on the water (as opposed to on the Internet) who are going to far flung places uses paper and pencil.
I know we are in a different ocean than you, but this statement fits very few of the cruisers we meet. It is the exact opposite in the Caribbean and those cruisers we know leaving the Caribbean and heading across the Pacific.

Mark
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Old 04-11-2013, 21:57   #17
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NOAA is a fabulous institution , hands off Dave
+2. NOAA is great use of our Tax $$$. I use the vector and raster charts with OpenCPN or browser. Print their PDFs before my trip with details of harbors, tricky, and narrow passages. I might be old, but find paper easy to handle so use charts, printed PDFs and digital interchangeably. Lot easier to grab paper in a pinch.
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Old 05-11-2013, 04:10   #18
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Two overlapping issues are being discussed:
- The govt is getting out of the printing business but you can still get paper charts if you like from private companies or print them yourself.
- The second and more interesting subject is are paper charts outdated in the modern world.

20 years ago when a very basic chart plotter was thousands of dollars and electronic versions of charts likewise were very expensive, only the wealthiest yachtsmen could afford electronic backups and those were typically tied directly into the boats electrical system creating a single point of failure. For most, you either couldn't afford a chart plotter or only a single one with no backup. In this case, it made a lot of sense to keep paper backups as there were typically multiple single points of failure that would leave you with no charting capability.

Move forward to the modern world: In our case, we have 3 laptops that can run chart plotting software, an old hand held GPS, a tablet with chart plotting software and built in gps, 2 smart phones with built in gps and chart plotting software.
- While able to draw power off the boats system, they all have independent battery sources.
- If the satellites go down, most of them can still be used as a chart with dead reckoning available.
- I found some old paper charts while cleaning out the boat when we bought it. Humidity had turned them into a mushy pile of useless garbage.
- While theoretically possible for all electronics to fail, it's also possible for your charts to blow overboard likelwise leaving you with no charting capability. There is no perfect system and at some point you have to decide when it's good enough.

If you want paper charts, that's fine. I think they look nice mounted in a picture frame and hung on the wall but for on the water use, they are an outdated technology (obviously if you are cruising somewhere where there are no electronic charts, that's a different situation.)
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:08   #19
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

there will never be end of paper charts, on the end there can be only one, end of electronic(charts). one good nuke war and that's it....paper again

Quartermaster Second Class Jenny Reid stands her duties as the Quartermaster of the watch (QMOW) aboard Mobile Bay -Ticonderoga class guided missile cruiser




us aircraft carrier bridge...






The Marine Installer's Rant: Seafair Grand Luxe
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:20   #20
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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there will never be end of paper charts, on the end there can be only one, end of electronic(charts). one good nuke war and that's it....paper again
Why would "one <good< nuke war" result in paper charts, is there "one <bad> nuke " war as well.

What is the point of pictures of military people standing around a chart table ,equally I could show you loads of these pictures.

paper will die, its just a matter of time.

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Old 05-11-2013, 06:37   #21
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

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there will never be end of paper charts, on the end there can be only one, end of electronic(charts). one good nuke war and that's it....paper again

Quartermaster Second Class Jenny Reid stands her duties as the Quartermaster of the watch (QMOW) aboard Mobile Bay -Ticonderoga class guided missile cruiser




us aircraft carrier bridge...






The Marine Installer's Rant: Seafair Grand Luxe
While I have great respect for our men in uniform...Are you implying the military is an efficent, logical organization? Seriously?

The jokes about the military doing stupid things because thats what the regulations call for are legendary.

The only possible justification on a military ship is the potential for an EM bomb type attack and if the military hasn't accounted for that with shielded backup naviagation systems they need new people on the job.

I doubt anyone is going to waste an EM bomb on a cruiser a 1000 miles from land.
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:47   #22
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Let me be that moron who sails with paper charts. I truly do not care.

When we get daylight readable sheets of e-ink, I will convert.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:51   #23
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Let me be that moron who sails with paper charts. I truly do not care.

When we get daylight readable sheets of e-ink, I will convert.

Cheers,
b.
http://www.eink.com/flexible.html

Not long now so
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Old 05-11-2013, 07:00   #24
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

I can never understand how the navy shoves those people and charts, let alone room enough to use them, into those cruise missiles that fly tortuous courses 50' above complicated terrain for 1,000's of miles.

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Old 05-11-2013, 07:49   #25
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I can never understand how the navy shoves those people and charts, let alone room enough to use them, into those cruise missiles that fly tortuous courses 50' above complicated terrain for 1,000's of miles. Mark
LOL In case of war, they have a backup plan consisting of tomahawks, the kind that isn't bothered by nukes or EM bombs. They also hoist sails in masts they hide aboard etc.
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Old 05-11-2013, 08:13   #26
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

I know this won't convince someone who passionately believes electronic is best, but here's part of why we still keep paper charts: Two years ago, some friends of ours boat was struck by lightning. Over 25,000 AUD damage done, all to electronic gear. I.e., no more chartplotter, autopilot, VHF, SSB, 2 dead computers, 1 dead touchscreen, and on and on. Lightning is capricious. A few boats are struck every year.

We use a lot of electronic charting, but I prefer to keep out of date paper charts; the rocks don't move very much, except in volcanic areas, where they may go up and down a lot! We've never lost a chart overboard, although a leak once forced a lot of chart drying.

To the guy that found the chart mush: yuck. But not the fault of paper charts, but lack of ventilation and improper storage. Some electronics don't much care for the damp, salt air environment, either.

My 2 cents' worth.

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Old 05-11-2013, 08:23   #27
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

When Einstein was asked what weapons he thought would be used in WW III, he responded that he didn't know what weapons would be used in the next world war. But in the war after that, the weapons would be sticks and stones.

If there's a global nuclear way, we won't be navigating with electronics or paper. The reality is that none of us will have the time to play around cruising the oceans of the world. We'll be much more concerned with obtaining safe food, water, and defending ourselves. And when we do manage to find a boat to get out on an ocean, we'll probably be navigating with sticks and stones too.
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Old 05-11-2013, 08:26   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
I know this won't convince someone who passionately believes electronic is best, but here's part of why we still keep paper charts: Two years ago, some friends of ours boat was struck by lightning. Over 25,000 AUD damage done, all to electronic gear. I.e., no more chartplotter, autopilot, VHF, SSB, 2 dead computers, 1 dead touchscreen, and on and on. Lightning is capricious. A few boats are struck every year. We use a lot of electronic charting, but I prefer to keep out of date paper charts; the rocks don't move very much, except in volcanic areas, where they may go up and down a lot! We've never lost a chart overboard, although a leak once forced a lot of chart drying. To the guy that found the chart mush: yuck. But not the fault of paper charts, but lack of ventilation and improper storage. Some electronics don't much care for the damp, salt air environment, either. My 2 cents' worth. Ann
So Ann, after that lightning strike, how are you going to determine your position with the paper chart? Do you carry a clock that is not powered by electricity incl. battery? And a sextant? Able to get a fix within 2-3nm using those? I don't even have the clock, so I'll have to sail towards land and feel my way into an anchorage, launch the dinghy and go ask where I am, then go out and buy yet another GPS. Still, can't believe lightning will kill all my satellite positioning capability
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Old 05-11-2013, 08:31   #29
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

Speaking from experience - we took a direct lightning hit that damaged $40,000 USD of all of our electronics and most of the electrics, including shorting and boiling our house batteries - we made out just fine with electronic charting afterwards.

We have two fixed GPS's, a chartplotter, a fixed vhf with GPS and nav software, 3 computers, two handheld GPS units, a couple of GPS usb pucks, a handheld radio with GPS and nav software and two cameras with GPS's in them. We do not have a tablet or smart phone. Many of these came off unscathed and could be used for navigation.

With the plethora of GPS and charting devices now accumulating on boats, I think the chance of them all being taken out is exceedingly slim.

From talking with many other boats since that have also suffered severe strikes taking out most/all fixed systems, I have come to the hypothesis that 3 backup electronic devices not connected to the boat's electrical system is enough to drop the probability of being without electronic navigation to almost zero.

This is easily accomplished - hand held radios, cameras, watches, tablets, smart phones, USB pucks, computers, etc. It is amazing all of the consumer electronics with GPS's in them - let alone marine-specific devices.

I would be interested in hearing evidence to the contrary of my hypothesis, or expansion on it based on real data, as to when the "safety" margin is high enough. Particularly since almost everyone but us carries smart phones or tablets that are almost full chartplotters in themselves.

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Old 05-11-2013, 08:50   #30
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Re: The End of Paper Nautical Charts

I guess, I am just a dinosaur, I use paper charts, sextant, and yes I do have a chronometer. I do also use the gps plotters etc..., however i don't leave my brain at home when I turn on the electronic devices and my knowledge goes beyond understanding how to operate an electronic device, I also plot on a paperchart every 2 hours. NOAA lost my vote when they began going armed and started boarding vessels.
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