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Old 20-11-2013, 05:31   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
> this is specifically because it breaks the requirements

Care to tell us all exactly where this is specified as the reason for it's non inclusion.

Edit: Your one reference jusr doesn't mention it. I provided three references earlier which do specifically give it as a proword:

ACP 125(F), Communication Instructions Radiotelephone Procedure
ICAO Manual of Radio Telephony and
UNDP Guide to Radio Procedures for Emergency Responders
I can continue to add references till the cows come home.

And there's no point to this argument. I've said that in the licensed CEPT VHF exam there is no proword or procedure that uses " break"

Since you don't even have a syllabus or a licensing system for leisure VHF, why argue with me.

I've said it as I see it and I've backed it up. For professional VHF licensed radio operators it should not be used ( and in fact I've never heard it used by professionals ). Port vts controls here often dispense with many pro words ( they don't use over for example ) but they always preference their call with the destination I'd.

If you think about it. The procedures are supposed to preface each radio " sentence " with the called and sender id. , hence why ever use break.

For example

"Altantic conveyor , Dublin port report at pickup buoy alpha " , " Dublin port , Atlantic conveyor , all copied "Marsk container , Dublin port , hold for pilot at area delta " Etc etc

" break " has no place in proper vhf comms and in my view comes from Cb radio and smokey and the bandit " breaker breaker good buddy " nonsense

( I used Dublin port cause I happened to be listening to them recently )



Out.

Dave
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Old 20-11-2013, 06:47   #122
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Re: terminology ........ whats your flavour ???

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Originally Posted by Hoofsmit View Post
Taking the risk of being called a limey or pomme ( or what ever else you care to call an English man)

It would appear that there is an Atlantic divide , The ASA teach one thing the RYA another......... CF another

I suppose it does not matter as long as the captain and crew/ navigator agree on your ship.

But when discusing the finer points of tidal currents in a forum we need to have continuity

I propose ( seconder and quorum needed) ( and I am not going to be the chairman) that this thread is used as a reference to what is understood by CF members, we can even have acronyms ( requested by some of our honourable members)
some will call them "Redcoats","tin solders" etc. and if you are one of the folks that received property in the "new world" from the "Kings grant" we call call them "thieves"(only land less indegonious people call them this!)... I sir will call you "friend",now that is "correct terminology" fair winds..
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Old 20-11-2013, 09:15   #123
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Re: Terminology ........ Whats your Flavour?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Ground wind is not " irrelevant " as far as sails go. It's the primarily motive power. Water referenced wind is used in polar to remove the effect of current generated winds , so as to produce a symmetrical polar not influenced by tide. But it's a mathematical abstraction , you can only experience true ( land wind ) md apparent wind. You can never experience water referenced wind

Dave
Dave let me give a couple of examples that I think will show the error in you thinking.

Let's say there is a ground (or land) based wind 5 knots from the North. You are out sailing and there is a 5 knot current North to south.
Your true wind is zero and that is exactly what you will experience. Where is the "primary motive power" from the the ground wind? There is none. The sails will be limp.

Another example there is zero ground wind, but the same 5knot current. Ground wind is zero, but true wind is 5knots. Which do your sails respond to? There will be a nice 5 knot wind (maybe more or less apparent wind ) filling your sails. Zero ground wind is not zero motive power for your sails. True wind is not a mathematical abstraction and yes you will be experiencing and your sailing is via water referenced wind (true) and apparent wind.

These examples are contrived with a strong current and light wind, but I hope they illustrate to you how your thinking about ground and true wind is fundamentally incorrect.
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Old 20-11-2013, 11:02   #124
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Re: Terminology ........ Whats your Flavour?

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
[...]
I don't want everyone to switch to ground wind, but it would be nice if the instrument makers at least gave us the option. [...]
I realize you are talking about instruments, but some software gives you this Ground/True option -- NavMonPc is one such program.
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Old 20-11-2013, 11:40   #125
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Re: Terminology ........ Whats your Flavour?

Fascinating! To think that I have sailed for over 40 years, been a reasonably successful racer and then cruiser, and I never once worried about the definition of apparent/true/ground/land/satellite/solar/cosmic winds.

What on earth was I thinking? I hang my head in shame...

Jim
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Old 20-11-2013, 13:23   #126
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Fascinating! To think that I have sailed for over 40 years, been a reasonably successful racer and then cruiser, and I never once worried about the definition of apparent/true/ground/land/satellite/solar/cosmic winds. What on earth was I thinking? I hang my head in shame... Jim
Spot on
Yep tell me about it.
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Old 20-11-2013, 13:32   #127
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Re: Terminology ........ Whats your Flavour?

I have sailed for the last 50 years without ever having electronics on board even, so most of these things are unfathomable to me. However, I have enjoyed the sailing an awful lot without bothering my not so pretty little head with convoluted mathematics and just made seemingly automatic minor adjustments to the steering stick and the ropey bits with my hands.

PS. Apparently I lied. My lady says that she has had her garmin 72 with us sometimes, which she uses for outback trips, so I have to amend it now to never having looked at any.

Coops.
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Old 20-11-2013, 14:33   #128
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Re: terminology ........ whats your flavour ???

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Just came into this thread late - but...

Jim, what is wrong with "Amps per hour"; how would you define say an electrical source that had a capacity 10 Ampere hours if not as 10 Amps per hour (or say 1 Amp per 10 hours etc). ...
Unless you are taking objection to saying "Amps per hour" in lieu of "Ampere hours" - in which case, I also would have the gag reflex engaged.
It is amp-hour (Ah) or ampere-hour (Ah) not amps per hour... 1 amp for 1 hour = 1 Ah..
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Old 20-11-2013, 15:09   #129
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Re: Terminology ........ Whats your Flavour?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The movement rate and direction of the tide is called the set and drift , current is not tide , though one can talk of tidal currents


Dave
This is incorrect.

Without looking up a technical definition, I would say that set and drift are deviations (from intended or expected values) due to the action of WIND and WATER, with the latter being comprised of the action of both CURRENT and WAVES.
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Old 20-11-2013, 17:02   #130
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Re: Terminology ........ Whats your Flavour?

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This is incorrect.

Without looking up a technical definition, I would say that set and drift are deviations (from intended or expected values) due to the action of WIND and WATER, with the latter being comprised of the action of both CURRENT and WAVES.
I suggest you look up the technical definitions

A tide has

rise and fall,

set and drift

Dave
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Old 20-11-2013, 17:04   #131
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Re: Terminology ........ Whats your Flavour?

Quote:
It would appear that there is an Atlantic divide , The ASA teach one thing the RYA another......... CF another
The ASA of course is not a licensee or certified "course" whereas the RYA is a CEPT course. The holder of a RYA VHF license is good to operate a VHF on worldwide commercial vessels, A US leisure VHF operator has no such ability.

IN the US , the equivalent license would be the GMDSS Radio Operator's License, perhaps a course book covering theses PROWords might be available to someone to reference

dave
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Old 20-11-2013, 17:30   #132
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Re: Terminology ........ Whats your Flavour?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I suggest you look up the technical definitions

A tide has

rise and fall,

set and drift

Dave
So I looked it up in a couple of dictionaries (as opposed to a nautical specific reference such as Chapmans, which I do not have at hand) and found:


Dictionary #1

8. NAVIGATION the distance or extent to which a ship or aircraft deviates from its set course because of the action of wind or water currents
10. GEOGRAPHY the motion of a river or broad ocean current


Dictionary #2

2. Navigation. (of a ship) the component of the movement that is due to the force of wind and currents.
3. Oceanography. a broad, shallow ocean current that advances at the rate of 10 to 15 miles (16 to 24 km) a day.
4a. Nautical. the flow or the speed in knots of an ocean current.
5. Aeronautics. the deviation of an aircraft from a set course due to cross winds.


So it appears we are both correct. My apologies.
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Old 20-11-2013, 17:45   #133
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Re: Terminology ........ Whats your Flavour?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
current is not tide , though one can talk of tidal currents
Dave
No one can't..... one can talk of 'tidal streams'... currents and tides are difrent hanibals....

I honestly don't believe I have bought into this debate....
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Old 20-11-2013, 17:48   #134
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Re: Terminology ........ Whats your Flavour?

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No one can't..... one can talk of 'tidal streams'... currents and tides are difrent hanibals....

I honestly don't believe I have bought into this debate....
Signs of weakness and debasement, Frank. Your friends on the Comedy net will help straighten you out...

Jim
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Old 20-11-2013, 17:56   #135
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Re: Terminology ........ Whats your Flavour?

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
No one can't..... one can talk of 'tidal streams'... currents and tides are difrent hanibals....

I honestly don't believe I have bought into this debate....
Sorry peruse NOAA, Wiki, etc etc

A tidal current is analogues to tidal stream.

I cite

NOAA 2013 Tidal Current Predictions - NOAA Tides & Currents,
US Military : http://msi.nga.mil/MSISiteContent/St...N/Chapt-09.pdf

also used as similar terms are tidal streams, and tidal flows !.

Quote:
I honestly don't believe I have bought into this debate....
its ok to be wrong



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