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Old 16-11-2013, 04:36   #31
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Re: terminology ........ whats your flavour ???

>
> if you start adjusting for current it then become apparent

Now you are really confusing me. What is the difference between tidal flow and current with regard to it's effect on True v Ground wind. They are both components of the actual movement of the water over the ground. Ignoring either one gives you a speed/direction which has no real world meaining.

As I sail outside of Basilisk Passage at a certain time, I have a 1.5 knot current from the NW, a 1.5 knot tidal flow from NE and a 5 knot Ground wind from the SE.

Are you saying that True wind is derived from the second and third components but not the first?
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Old 16-11-2013, 05:15   #32
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Re: terminology ........ whats your flavour ???

[QUOTE=Hoofsmit;1392069]
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
I hadn't really thought about the difference between Water and Ground referenced True Wind (the first place it was important to me was flying where it is Ground referenced).

I can see that before GPS it was difficult to determine ground based at sea unless you knew what the tide and currents were doing.[/QUOTE

This is the confusion.... if it is referenced to tide ( tut tut you will get your wrists smacked if you follow tradition)/ current makes no difference to true wind ( as I see true wind) if you start adjusting for current it then become apparent wind.
I think you are consistently using the wrong terminology.

Apparent wind is simple that what you feel on face.
True wind is water based and takes into account the effects of current
Ground wind is ground based and what you would feel anchored, or moored.

You are not alone with your misinterpretation especially of true wind which most assume would be ground based, or should match the forecast wind for example.

Most boats have no way of displaying ground wind.
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Old 16-11-2013, 10:20   #33
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Re: terminology ........ whats your flavour ???

How about "hot water heater" instead of "water heater"?

If it's already hot, why heat it?
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Old 16-11-2013, 10:56   #34
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Re: terminology ........ whats your flavour ???

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Originally Posted by CaptTom View Post
How about "hot water heater" instead of "water heater"?

If it's already hot, why heat it?
I got dinged in college for writing a paper and saying "... NBA basketball star Michael Jordan..."

I argued that plenty of people just say "NBA" and don't think to themselves "... National Basketball Association basketball star Michael Jordan..."

I still got points docked I think.

Other wonderful redundant terms:

ATM machine
PIN number
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Old 16-11-2013, 14:25   #35
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Re: terminology ........ whats your flavour ???

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Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
More of a pet peeve, but when people on the radio say "break" and wait a few seconds while still pressing the push-to-talk button! You're supposed to be listening when you break! There is a USCG radio operator in the Northern California area that always does this. Didn't she learn anything about radio operation???
I was taught that Break is used to separate sections of a transmission. This is how I have heard it used by local Coast Guard here. You do not release the button.

The intergoogle seems to show both usages (what you were taught and what I was taught). Perhaps a difference in region or in Marine VHF vs other uses??

Odd.
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Old 16-11-2013, 16:20   #36
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Re: terminology ........ whats your flavour ???

The way I was taught it in the military:

BREAK indicates a new section of a transmission, there shouldn't be any "wait for a few seconds".

WAIT ONE or WAIT OUT means I am doing something and will continue shortly. IN which case, you release the PTT button.

That's also as stipulated in:
ACP 125(F), Communication Instructions Radiotelephone Procedure
ICAO Manual of Radio Telephony and
UNDP Guide to Radio Procedures for Emergency Responders
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Old 16-11-2013, 16:39   #37
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Re: terminology ........ whats your flavour ???

I'm too simple to deal with the fine print.
To me, apparent wind is what I get when my boat is moving. True wind is what I get when my boat is not moving. Anything else is of no practical use to me, so I don't add more clutter to my brain.

I don't see how we can establish a firm terminology when half of us can't spell.
I'm thinking about starting a thread just for spelling.
A windlass is a device to help you raise your anchor. Windless is when you're becalmed.
When you talk about a bearing, it's cutless. When you talk about a sword, it's cutlass.
When you have a small boat or tender for the big boat, it's a dinghy. If you have a dingy, you should clean it.
Etc. ad infinitum.
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Old 16-11-2013, 17:36   #38
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Re: terminology ........ whats your flavour ???

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Originally Posted by FSMike View Post
I'm too simple to deal with the fine print.
To me, apparent wind is what I get when my boat is moving. True wind is what I get when my boat is not moving. Anything else is of no practical use to me, so I don't add more clutter to my brain.

I don't see how we can establish a firm terminology when half of us can't spell.
I'm thinking about starting a thread just for spelling.
A windlass is a device to help you raise your anchor. Windless is when you're becalmed.
When you talk about a bearing, it's cutless. When you talk about a sword, it's cutlass.
When you have a small boat or tender for the big boat, it's a dinghy. If you have a dingy, you should clean it.
Etc. ad infinitum.

Too true. And how about the "bowsprint"?
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Old 16-11-2013, 17:56   #39
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Re: terminology ........ whats your flavour ???

Re TWS..interesting, most boat instruments calculate TWA and TWS from the AWA and AWS and boat speed through the water, not SOG. Boat speed through the water is influenced by the direction and strength of tide and current, so the TWA and TWS we see on our instruments are referenced to the water.
I'm not saying that's a definition but it's what most of us get on our instruments.
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Old 16-11-2013, 17:59   #40
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Re: terminology ........ whats your flavour ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
I was taught that Break is used to separate sections of a transmission. This is how I have heard it used by local Coast Guard here. You do not release the button.

The intergoogle seems to show both usages (what you were taught and what I was taught). Perhaps a difference in region or in Marine VHF vs other uses??

Odd.
the term "break" is not a valid PROWORD in the CEPT harmonised VHF license in Europe. You are expected to listen before transmitting and "break" contravenes that rule.
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Old 16-11-2013, 18:06   #41
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Re: terminology ........ whats your flavour ???

[QUOTE=noelex 77;1392092]
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Originally Posted by Hoofsmit View Post

I think you are consistently using the wrong terminology.

Apparent wind is simple that what you feel on face.
True wind is water based and takes into account the effects of current
Ground wind is ground based and what you would feel anchored, or moored.

You are not alone with your misinterpretation especially of true wind which most assume would be ground based, or should match the forecast wind for example.

Most boats have no way of displaying ground wind.
TRUE WIND is outside of the marine environment universally a ground referenced wind.

however for centuries mariners had no way to measure progress over the ground, hence they measured water speed and computed TRUE WIND. the intention being that such a wind in fact was actually ground wind with a possible error, but so much was in error that that didn't matter.

Then along came sailing instruments , since they only had STW , they perpetuated the abomination that TRUE WIND is water referenced.

Then along came GPS ( which by the way noelex, virtually everyone can now determine ground wind ) Now you had a speed over the ground, so you CAN calculate TRUE wind ( and relate it to the forecast say) but of course such instrument makers didn't want to "confuse" punters, so they invented this term ground wind ( that none else uses)

bah humbug

The is TRUE WIND, APPARENT WIND at WATER REFERENCED WIND, you can feel true wind, you can feel apparent wind, you can never experience water referenced wind. ( do say its when the boat is stopped, thats still apparent wind , i.e. the wind that is apparent on the deck of the boat)

dave
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Old 16-11-2013, 18:08   #42
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Re: terminology ........ whats your flavour ???

"Break" (sometimes repeated twice or even thrice) is often used to interrupt an ongoing conversation. This may not be codified, approved or recognized by licensing authorities, but it is a real phenomenon, observed on ham and VHF nets.

When used in this way it is appropriate to listen after transmitting in order to determine if one has gotten the attention of the participants in the conversation.

When used to distinguish between sections of a long transmission, or to direct the content toward a different receiver it is not appropriate to pause to listen.

Cheers,

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Old 16-11-2013, 18:14   #43
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Re: terminology ........ whats your flavour ???

Quote:
When used to distinguish between sections of a long transmission, or to direct the content toward a different receiver it is not appropriate to pause to listen.
It is a legal requirement of a licensed and documented VHF operator to listen before transmitting.

dave
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Old 16-11-2013, 18:27   #44
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Re: terminology ........ whats your flavour ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
I got dinged in college for writing a paper and saying "... NBA basketball star Michael Jordan..."

I argued that plenty of people just say "NBA" and don't think to themselves "... National Basketball Association basketball star Michael Jordan..."

I still got points docked I think.

Other wonderful redundant terms:

ATM machine
PIN number
CVT Transmission
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Old 16-11-2013, 18:31   #45
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Re: terminology ........ whats your flavour ???

> It is a legal requirement of a licensed and documented VHF operator to listen before transmitting.

There are two accepted usages of BREAK - single and multiple.

A single BREAK is used in the middle of a transmission to indicate that what follows is separate to the previous section

Example: A control station polling multiple vessels:
...
CS: All boats, this is CS. Log update, please state your position and heading, Break, ,Boat1 Over

Boat1: Boat1, we are anchored at.....

CS: CS Roger that Boat 1. Break. Boat 2. Over

Boat2: Boat 2, we are at location..., heading... over

CS: Roger that, Boat2. Break. Boat 3....

etc.

Multiple BREAKS are used to interrupt a transmission exchange between other with callsigns with a higher priority communication (that don't fall into the Mayday, Pan etc structure) Example - interrupting a couple of recreational fishing boats having a long conversation on channel 16 to tell them to take it to another channel.

And of course, you always need to listen before transmitting to ensure that you are not intruding on another, possibly higher priority transmission.
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