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Old 11-03-2015, 07:42   #46
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Re: Tablet Navigation?

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Originally Posted by endoftheroad View Post
Keep in mind that a tablet doesn't necessarily have to be in the cockpit to be exposed to sunshine.
My iPads shut down a couple times sitting on the nav table in the sun.
Changing courses and keeping tract of the suns entry through the companionway could be a real challenge therefore tablets with overheat protection is a great feature.
I make it a habit to cover my iPad with a towel for protection from the sun or throw it in a drawer.
You chose well.
My iphone seems to be terribly sensitive to cold as well. When I go snowmobiling, if I forget to put it in an inner pocket where it can benefit from body heat, the battery can go from nearly full to shut down just because it's cold. I've learned to deal with it and doing things like keeping it shaded with a towel on hot days sound like a good idea for the iPad too, but doesn't it seem odd that a little box of microscopic printed circuits could be so sensitive to both hot and cold temps?!
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Old 11-03-2015, 07:51   #47
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Re: Tablet Navigation?

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Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
There are a few sturdy and waterproof android phones and tablets available.
Or just use a cheap (used?) android phone a have a few spares.
If you stay alert to special upgrade offers from telecoms, these offers are your clue a deluge of used android tablets will soon appear on Craigslist.

I paid around $500 to Amazon for my first Motorola Xoom in 2013. About two months ago I went to Craigslist looking for a backup. Lots of Verizon veersions of the Xoom for $150 or less. I ended up paying $80 for a lightly used Xoom.

Regarding the Xperia and other higher resolution tablets, the higher resolution displays objects in OpenCPN so they appear "tiny". So, if you go with a high resolution tablet like the Xperia be prepared to use the zoom feature often...

While collecting information on tablets make sure you look into the software side costs, contracts and requirements.

Linux and applications from Google Play you need to use OpenCPN, charts and OpenCPN are all open source and free. Plus you have the advantage of being able to run many free Linux programs, switching back & forth between Linux and android apps whenever you wish.

If you can bake a cake using a recipe book, you can have Linux and OpenCPN running on your android device in a matter of hours with a good connection to the net.

Instructions mentioned previously iin this thread are here: Building on Motorola Xoom | Official OpenCPN Homepage
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Old 11-03-2015, 08:52   #48
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Re: Tablet Navigation?

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
BTW, your earlier mention of an overheating tendency caused me to consider that too, and keeping in mind it will be used in the sun, I ordered a white one and a white or light gray lifeproof case. I realize that most of the heat comes from the inside, but figured that every little bit helps and there was no sense in having a black frame or black case soaking up even more heat from the suns rays. Thanks again for your assistance with this.
Lot of good points made by others. Shade is very helpful, remembering that in "nav" mode the gps is working hard , the screen brightness creates heat, etc. Sometimes my phone gets "real" hot and I realize that I have not closed the (car) nav app. I close the apps and the temperature reduction is noticeable.

Also - At kings cup, a friend put his iPad in a pedestal/table locker (white box/closeable lid) in the cockpit and left it navigating - he wanted to capture our track. When he pulled it out at the end of the passage race there was a big piece of the track missing. (of course I was astounded that it worked at all through the locker lid - but I am a simpleton)

We finally surmised that during "mid-day" the inside of that locker go hot enough to go into protect mode.

So shade + airflow is key...
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Old 11-03-2015, 08:56   #49
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Re: Tablet Navigation?

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
My iphone seems to be terribly sensitive to cold as well. When I go snowmobiling, if I forget to put it in an inner pocket where it can benefit from body heat, the battery can go from nearly full to shut down just because it's cold. I've learned to deal with it and doing things like keeping it shaded with a towel on hot days sound like a good idea for the iPad too, but doesn't it seem odd that a little box of microscopic printed circuits could be so sensitive to both hot and cold temps?!

Oh....well.....cold is something I haven't experienced in 15 years.
Been there done that.
50 degrees Fahrenheit is the coldest I've been and it's only been a couple times.

I definately have no cold weather experience with tablets to offer.
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Old 11-03-2015, 13:54   #50
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Re: Tablet Navigation?

I'm an offshore cruiser and I'm looking for a 10''/11'' tablet that I can use for all my navigation, including weather forecast and the odd email. I keep it in a place in the cabin where I can see it from the cockpit, so it's hardly ever outside.

I would like to use it as my only computer on board, with a laptop as a backup. It will constantly be connected to on board power, so battery life is not as important although power consumption is.

I was looking at a iPad Air 2 with a key board but I now rule it out because I can not run some desirable programs on it (e.g. OpenCPN) and not some hard ware ether (as a Ham I'm using SignaLink). I guess staying with windows would make sense. Instead of getting a tablet with an external key board I'm now looking at a hybrid such as a HP x2 or an Acer Switch 10. Of course I than would have to use an external GPS.

What's you opinion?
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Old 11-03-2015, 15:41   #51
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Re: Tablet Navigation?

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Originally Posted by goingplaces View Post
I'm an offshore cruiser and I'm looking for a 10''/11'' tablet that I can use for all my navigation, including weather forecast and the odd email. I keep it in a place in the cabin where I can see it from the cockpit, so it's hardly ever outside.

I would like to use it as my only computer on board, with a laptop as a backup. It will constantly be connected to on board power, so battery life is not as important although power consumption is.

I was looking at a iPad Air 2 with a key board but I now rule it out because I can not run some desirable programs on it (e.g. OpenCPN) and not some hard ware ether (as a Ham I'm using SignaLink). I guess staying with windows would make sense. Instead of getting a tablet with an external key board I'm now looking at a hybrid such as a HP x2 or an Acer Switch 10. Of course I than would have to use an external GPS.

What's you opinion?
Your choices depend on how you connect to the internet and what types of weather reports you'll want.

If you want weatherfax there are apps available from Google Play. I suggest you visit Google Play to peruse available apps, including apps that may interface with ham equipment. OpenCPN, zyGrib and other useful programs can be run in a Linux chroot environment on androids. Instructions are here: Building on Motorola Xoom | Official OpenCPN Homepage

I just Googled "android weatherfax" and "android ham". There's gobbs of apps available.
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Old 11-03-2015, 16:12   #52
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Re: Tablet Navigation?

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Originally Posted by goingplaces View Post
I'm an offshore cruiser and I'm looking for a 10''/11'' tablet that I can use for all my navigation, including weather forecast and the odd email. I keep it in a place in the cabin where I can see it from the cockpit, so it's hardly ever outside.

I would like to use it as my only computer on board, with a laptop as a backup. It will constantly be connected to on board power, so battery life is not as important although power consumption is.

I was looking at a iPad Air 2 with a key board but I now rule it out because I can not run some desirable programs on it (e.g. OpenCPN) and not some hard ware ether (as a Ham I'm using SignaLink). I guess staying with windows would make sense. Instead of getting a tablet with an external key board I'm now looking at a hybrid such as a HP x2 or an Acer Switch 10. Of course I than would have to use an external GPS.

What's you opinion?
My opinion: stick with what you know. If all your programs and kkowledge is windows so get a windows. If its linux get some linux machine.
Rebuilding an unknown system in the middle of nowhere without fast internet access for getting help is a nightmare. At least if the system is important to you.

I'd get something that is fully dedicated to all boating things if possible, soa system just for opencpn, satphone, weatherfax, etc. That system should be permanently installed and connected. With full integration into the boat instruments an internal GPS is not required, and you get a lot of new features, like historical wind data and trend analysis.
My choice would be a small dedicated mini PC if there is a place for a suitable monitor. Or a tablet permanently mounted at the nav station.
Personally I don't really like laptops or hybrids on board. They are not really good for a permanent setup, and less flexible than a tablet with an wireless keyboard. But that's just me.

Cheers
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Old 11-03-2015, 16:40   #53
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Re: Tablet Navigation?

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My opinion: stick with what you know. If all your programs and kkowledge is windows so get a windows. If its linux get some linux machine.
Yep. Don't bother learning anything different. Not worth the effort.

Quote:
Rebuilding an unknown system in the middle of nowhere without fast internet access for getting help is a nightmare. At least if the system is important to you.
Really. C'mon. I'm surprised some people get out of bed in the morning. Pray tell, with all of your obvious experience with anything and everything, what's the probability of having to "rebuild an unknown system" in the middle of nowhere. And, which "unknown system" are you speaking of?

Quote:
I'd get something that is fully dedicated to all boating things if possible, soa system just for opencpn, satphone, weatherfax, etc.
And "that system" is?

Quote:
That system should be permanently installed and connected. With full integration into the boat instruments an internal GPS is not required, and you get a lot of new features, like historical wind data and trend analysis.
And "that system" is? Whatever it is sounds pretty complicated and expensive. Why "permanently installed and connected"? What happens if a critical component fails? Will everything else still function? And, what's wrong with a tablet having an internal gps? Historical wind data and trend analysis? Sheesh!

Quote:
My choice would be a small dedicated mini PC if there is a place for a suitable monitor. Or a tablet permanently mounted at the nav station.
Personally I don't really like laptops or hybrids on board. They are not really good for a permanent setup, and less flexible than a tablet with an wireless keyboard. But that's just me.
There's a huge difference between what you recommend in this post and what you say you prefer. Except for your preference for built in, permanent installations

Simplicity, and low cost "portable" reliable solutions are what most others probably want.



Cheers
Rabbi[/QUOTE]
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Old 11-03-2015, 17:08   #54
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Re: Tablet Navigation?

Just a good point to think about, a portable unit for your dingy also becomes a very nice piece of safety kit !!!
Last season I was sailing south between main land and an island solo at about 2am pitch black no lights anywhere to get a sighting. I had a full on power glitch and had to shut down power no chart plotter no auto pilot < no worries fire up the tablet I have Navionics all good > not all good battery flat woops, daylight 4 hrs away will probably be on the rocks > lightening bolt strikes the brain, what about the android phone with Navionics loaded .... what a saviour!!!!!
So it got me through to daylight to be able to eye ball and then repair power, so also think of back up to the back up some may laugh but most of us have the equipment already so load it up "You Never Know" could save the day
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Old 11-03-2015, 17:55   #55
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Re: Tablet Navigation?

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Originally Posted by Wrong View Post
Yep. Don't bother learning anything different. Not worth the effort.

Really. C'mon. I'm surprised some people get out of bed in the morning. Pray tell, with all of your obvious experience with anything and everything, what's the probability of having to "rebuild an unknown system" in the middle of nowhere. And, which "unknown system" are you speaking of?

And "that system" is?

And "that system" is? Whatever it is sounds pretty complicated and expensive. Why "permanently installed and connected"? What happens if a critical component fails? Will everything else still function? And, what's wrong with a tablet having an internal gps? Historical wind data and trend analysis? Sheesh!



There's a huge difference between what you recommend in this post and what you say you prefer. Except for your preference for built in, permanent installations

Simplicity, and low cost "portable" reliable solutions are what most others probably want.

opcorn:
No clue why you always look for a fight whenever someone doesn't follow your approach of forcing an android tablet to run something on it that is not meant to run on android. Getover it.



Why do I suggest to stick with something known: If someone likes to learn computing things, nothing wrong with using a new approach. Many cruisers i know prefer to sail and don't want to know more about computers than necessary to get that thing running.

Btw: yes I had to rebuild a system in chatham bay / Union island. HDD failure due to heat I guess. I would not want to do that with your android approach without internet access. Ever had an android tablet go bad and requiring a compete flash after an OTA update? I have had this a few times already, especially with my nexus7. Impossible without internet. I can easily restore a full system on windows and linux.

Integrating with the boats instruments and AIS is neither complex nor expensive. Just a standard USB - serial converter for $2. If you want industrial grade with galvanic isolation its more $60. Or get a muxer for more money. There is nothing wrong with an internal GPS but its simply not required with this setup.
This integration allows things that you can't have with your android hack. AIS alarms, shalow water alarms, wind speed alarms, wind trend analysis. The later provides an objective view if things are getting better or worse, somehting that a momentarily look at the instrument doesn't provide . At least a few others seem to like that as well, otherwise the dashboard would not have this functionality. All these are of course just technological clues to help a cruiser stay safe.

This setup can be reasonably cheap and fairly simple. You just need any kind of linux/windows pc to your liking and the usb-serial converter. As you know from the other thread I chose a permanently installed windows tablet.
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Old 12-03-2015, 04:12   #56
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Re: Tablet Navigation?

Thanks for you input guys. My concern really is when I'm passage making and not when I'm connected with the internet. Here some more details:


Navigation: For when I was clear of any land I so far only navigated with a GPS; waypoint and crosstrack error. I thought that was quit sufficient although if my laptop wouldn't be so power hungry I would have had it on all the time, with OpenCPN running.


Weather: Until now I turned the computer on in time, connected it with the radio and with the help of a decoder I could receive weather fax. Here I'm going to make an upgrade for my next trip; I only just got a 'SignaLink', not installed yet but it works much like a Pactor. I hope I'll be able to receive GRIB files with it.


Interfacing: I like it simple and prefer stand alone systems. When all the gadgets are connected I might lose the connection with the elements... Having said that, an other up grade will be an AIS Watchmate 850 and there I could connect the integrated GPS with the new tablet/computer. So an inbuilt GPS in the new tablet/computer is not a must.


Wrong: Thanks for the suggestions but I'm not much of a computer nerd, I think I'll stay with windows.


Jacko: Good point; a small tablet with internal GPS stowed in a safe place and loaded with charts would indeed make a good back up.


Rabbi: Now that's interesting! I never heard of a mini PC, looked it up in the net and think that could be an excellent alternative. Only; wouldn't that use a bit too much power? Or than a permanently installed windows tablet. Sounds good too, got to think about it. Could you recommend a good 10'' unit?


Cheers!
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Old 12-03-2015, 08:34   #57
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Re: Tablet Navigation?

Hi there!

Quote:
Originally Posted by goingplaces View Post
Navigation: For when I was clear of any land I so far only navigated with a GPS; waypoint and crosstrack error. I thought that was quit sufficient although if my laptop wouldn't be so power hungry I would have had it on all the time, with OpenCPN running.
On my last longer passages in 2011 / 2012 I used my smartphone for this. Sips the least amount of power. My new windows tablet with OpenCPN should run at 2.5Ah per day so no need for the phone anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goingplaces View Post
Weather: Until now I turned the computer on in time, connected it with the radio and with the help of a decoder I could receive weather fax. Here I'm going to make an upgrade for my next trip; I only just got a 'SignaLink', not installed yet but it works much like a Pactor. I hope I'll be able to receive GRIB files with it.
I use an iSathone with an OnsatMail account for passage weather, requesting GRIBs from Saildocs. Cost is roughly 2 USD per day for airtime.

In the Med I use an old Sangean SSB receiver placed beside my android phone to receive Navtex. Haven't tried that for weatherfax yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by goingplaces View Post
Interfacing: I like it simple and prefer stand alone systems. When all the gadgets are connected I might lose the connection with the elements... Having said that, an other up grade will be an AIS Watchmate 850 and there I could connect the integrated GPS with the new tablet/computer. So an inbuilt GPS in the new tablet/computer is not a must.
I just checked the Watchmate. It will read all NMEA from your boat instruments and repeat that on it's NMEA output and USB ports, muxed together with AIS and it's GPS information.
It's just two wires and you have all data (instruments, DSC, GPS and AIS) on the PC. IF your instruments support NMEA, of course.

BTW: With all data available on a low-power always-on PC or tablet maybe you can re-think the Watchmate investment. There may be other AIS transponders available without a dedicated display that also include a muxer but cost considerably less. Like the OceanSat for half the price (at least over here).


Quote:
Originally Posted by goingplaces View Post
Jacko: Good point; a small tablet with internal GPS stowed in a safe place and loaded with charts would indeed make a good back up.
We have a handfull (literally) of android tablets and phones with us when travelling (me, wife and two kids). All loaded with the Navionics app and charts. And the iSatphone has a GPS, too. So we have the backup to the backup to the backup.
Don't forget a solar emergency USB charger for the worst case scenario.



Quote:
Originally Posted by goingplaces View Post
Rabbi: Now that's interesting! I never heard of a mini PC, looked it up in the net and think that could be an excellent alternative. Only; wouldn't that use a bit too much power? Or than a permanently installed windows tablet. Sounds good too, got to think about it. Could you recommend a good 10'' unit?
I found and tried a tiny windows PC that was just a bit bigger than a USB stick for 110€. See here.
It consumes 1.5W or half of what the Watchmate consumes. That is roughly 3Ah per day which is next to nothing compared to the big items like fridge and autopilot. I returned it because it was running too hot and my initial idea of going without a monitor didn't really work well with windows. Plus the windows was bloated with chinese stuff.

Instead I am now preparing a 10" Windows tablet (Trekstor Wintron 10.1 including 3G) which I found on ebay very cheap. Has a broken screen glass but is otherwise fully functional, so will do for a first test. New these are around 200€. Running OpenCPN with the screen off it consumes just 1.2W or about 2.5Ah per day.

I don't think you will be able to source the exact same device anywhere outside Germany. But there are plenty of other suitable tablets. Just look for a fullsize USB port and if possible 2GB RAM.

I will see how this all works out in about two weeks when I'm back at the boat to install and connect this the tablet before the next holiday cruise starts. If all goes well I will add a 3G or 4G broadband radar to this in summer.

Cheers
Rabbi
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Old 12-03-2015, 12:13   #58
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Re: Tablet Navigation?

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No clue why you always look for a fight whenever someone doesn't follow your approach of forcing an android tablet to run something on it that is not meant to run on android. Getover it.
Two points. Where in the post you are responding to is there any evidence I am looking "for a fight... (because) someone doesn't follow (my) approach of forcing an android tablet to run something on it that (you believe) is not meant to run on android?

The fact is the linux chroot installation runs flawlessly on android devices because android has a linux kernel.

My motivation in the last post was to extract specifics from what is otherwise a lot of fluff. Did I interpret your comment about the difficulty of restoring an "unknown system" while underway for a slight against what you refer to as my "hack". Of course, because you and at least one other CF member, alter ego or sock puppet make a sport of it. You are totally misrepresenting the facts related to what's necessary to install and run OpenCPN in Linux on an android device. You are also innacurately making suggestions android and the linux chroot systems are inherently unstable and prone to failure. I distrust OTA updates and except for using them immediately after buying my Xoom new, have never used them since. But, ya know? Apple and Microsoft OTA software updates suffer from frequent glitches too. And, unless Microsoft and Apple has started supplying reinstallation media, once your system is damaged it may be for good. You've suddenly got a paper weight.

Quote:
Why do I suggest to stick with something known: If someone likes to learn computing things, nothing wrong with using a new approach. Many cruisers i know prefer to sail and don't want to know more about computers than necessary to get that thing running
Whatever. You or anyone else who are prone to avoiding exposure to new things, especially when a little time and brain power are required will stay with what you know. But, discouraging people from trying something unfamiliar by saying they should stay with what they know is just so much hot air.

Quote:
Btw: yes I had to rebuild a system in chatham bay / Union island. HDD failure due to heat I guess. I would not want to do that with your android approach without internet access. Ever had an android tablet go bad and requiring a compete flash after an OTA update? I have had this a few times already, especially with my nexus7. Impossible without internet.
Ever heard of a backup?

Quote:
I can easily restore a full system on windows and linux.
With what? An illegal copy of the Windows operating system? Linux? Absolutely, but not if you need files excluded from the installation media due to proprietary issues. You'll only accomplish that with access to the net.

Quote:
Integrating with the boats instruments and AIS is neither complex nor expensive. Just a standard USB - serial converter for $2. If you want industrial grade with galvanic isolation its more $60. Or get a muxer for more money. There is nothing wrong with an internal GPS but its simply not required with this setup.
Quote:
This integration allows things that you can't have with your android hack.
Just so there's no doubt as to who's tossing around derogatory comments. Here's a perfect example. Interesting isn't it that you will not find anywhere, in threads about Apple, Windows or any other related subject any comments of this type attributable to me. Who's picking the fights?

Quote:
AIS alarms, shalow water alarms, wind speed alarms, wind trend analysis. The later provides an objective view if things are getting better or worse, somehting that a momentarily look at the instrument doesn't provide . At least a few others seem to like that as well, otherwise the dashboard would not have this functionality. All these are of course just technological clues to help a cruiser stay safe.

This setup can be reasonably cheap and fairly simple. You just need any kind of linux/windows pc to your liking and the usb-serial converter. As you know from the other thread I chose a permanently installed windows tablet.
Fairly simple? Reasonably cheap? Very subjective appraisal to say the least, and much more involved than a sailor needs to navigate and stay safe.
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Old 12-03-2015, 16:10   #59
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Re: Tablet Navigation?

I think you are looking this from a developer perspective.

Consider me an average Joe. I prefer a native app that I can start with one finger. I don't want a VNC viewer to connect to a chrooted desktop manager to run OpenCPN. I don't want to root my device and I don't want to get a new ROM. I'm not the least interested in boot loaders. After reading a disclaimer on most rooting guides I certainly don't want to root my device. I prefer a one click installation over 7 pages of instructions. I don't want to consider any dependencies. I don't want to make and compile apps or drivers. I don't want to know about ssh and ports. All I want is to run openCPN.
I don't want to digg into these details because I am not here to have fun with bits and bytes. This is not about computers but about getting a cheap and reliable navigation aid to finally go sailing.

Many users (users! not developers or nerds) feel the same.

Quote:
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Fairly simple? Reasonably cheap? Very subjective appraisal to say the least, and much more involved than a sailor needs to navigate and stay safe.
My hardware is: a normal windows 8.1 machine (which happens to be a tablet) and a chinese USB-RS232 converter. Total cost new is $2 more than just a tablet.

My wiring is: power and 2 wires between the instruments and the USB-serial converter.

My installation instructions are: Download & run opencpn installer. If in trouble: look into the OpenCPN user manual.

Doesn't sound complex or expensive to me.
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Old 12-03-2015, 16:39   #60
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Re: Tablet Navigation?

O.K. Back from the long overdue trip to the laundromat.

This is for those of you who want nothing more to know about operating systems, software drivers, pixles, ram, any kind of storage medium or in general how computers work; than when you turn on the power they work.

No matter the operating system, whether M.S. Windows, android (a relative of linux), Linux, Apple O.S. or any number of less known systems, they all are useless without a computer or other device that can use them. Turned around, computers and other devices are paper weights without an operating system (software) that enables them to be used for accomplishing productive work with programs written for a variety of purposes. OpenCPN is one such program we can use to view charts and use output from a variety of external sources to assist us in navigating safely from, to; and around hazards we may encounter along the way.

Virtually every type of device can fail. Software "bugs" can render programs pretty useless. And seemingly routine procedures like assenting to a software update online can lead to a useless device or computer. Is one system more or less prone to these problems than others? I believe not. My observation over the years however suggest the Windows operating system has more security issues and bugs than either the Linux, android and Apple operating systems put together.

I quite frankly don't care which device or system folks choose as a platform for using OpenCPN. But, if some frequent "pro-windows, pro-Apple" posters are going to make derogatory and innacurate statements about something I have worked on that enables you to use OpenCPN on an android device, they will not do so with impunity. I will post in response to these attacks in order to reveal the facts and let others know their comments are incorrect, filled with exaggeration or bias.

So, a poster has complained about failed O.T.A. updates to his android device(s). For those of you who don't know, O.T.A. stands for "over the air" which is nothing more than an update made from a remote server on the internet. Can they fail? Definitely. This applies to not only android but every operating system. I can't possibly know why someone who deigns to know so much about computers would focus on the android system. But, there you are. In my experience the easiest system to 'restore' or for that matter 'refresh' is android. If you have made what's called a "nandroid backup" using the devices software "recovery" system, there's nothing easier than restoring or "flashing" the system. I do this as a matter of course if I suspect my device may have been compromised by visiting a "bad link" while browsing the net.

Insofar as the claim android's value is limited as an aide to navigation, I invite all of you to search the internet using relevant terms that include "android". You'll be surprised. I also believe using suitable android apps can extend the usefulness of OpenCPN by enabling communication with various external devices beyond internal and external usb, bluetooth and wireless gps. There are apps for AIS, but how they work are unknown to me because I am not equipped with AIS. Can't test them... Have to leave this up to others.

Finally. The claim there's something wrong with installing linux using an android application on an android device "because it's not designed for it" is pure hullabaloo. Once installed linux runs in a chroot environment seamlessly alongside android. This is possible because android has a linux "kernel", the heart of both the android and linux operating systems. During compilation the "kernel" is instructed to include certain device drivers in addition to the many included by default. Backwards compatibility of drivers is a linux strength, enabling many olders computers and peripheral devices long ago abandoned by other operating systems to still work.

Would I enjoy anyone in the process of choosing a device for the purpose of navigating with OpenCPN seriously consider an android? Sure. They use very little power with a corresponding long battery life. They can be shoved under a cushion in the sleep mode, ready for use on demand. Relative to other alternatives they are cheaper to obtain. Will you be able to use an android as extensively in a so called "integrated setup" as other alternatives? I believe the answer to this question has to await user efforts to try and find out. I have neither the interest or toys others want to test them myself.

Enuf.
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