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Old 10-04-2018, 21:14   #1
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Southern Ocean Movement - Towards the South!!!

The Southern Ocean is on the move - this is not new, it has been moving it's location for centuries but I had thought it was progressing north but it seems I have been wrong the whole time. It is progressing south!

Assuming Wikipedia is correct - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Ocean - the current northern limit is accepted by many (including me) to be 60 S.

Many speak of the Southern Ocean as being much further north; right up to the southern coast of Australia and I have always thought this concept to be a new trend. That is, the northern boundary to be moving north is a modern trend but Wikipedia suggests the opposite is true. The northern boundary is moving southwards as the years roll on.

Who would have thought?

And who would have thought I could have it wrong? . OK, don't answer that one

Does it matter; where is it for you?
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Old 10-04-2018, 22:04   #2
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Re: Southern Ocean Movement - Towards the South!!!

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Does it matter; where is it for you?
I seem to recall this was discussed in another thread sometime in the last year or so when discussing ocean areas. Different bodies have different definitions. I'll see if I can find that thread.
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Old 10-04-2018, 22:35   #3
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Re: Southern Ocean Movement - Towards the South!!!

Cant find the earlier thread, but the International Hydrographics Organisation is the prime authority and they wimped out in their primary document 'The Limits of Oceans and Seas' [IHO Special Publication 23, 1953]. https://epic.awi.de/29772/1/IHO1953a.pdf

They finally established it in 2000 as south of 60°S
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Old 10-04-2018, 22:36   #4
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Re: Southern Ocean Movement - Towards the South!!!

My limited understanding is that the notion of a "Southern Ocean" is a bit arbitrary.

The notion of an ocean is that it is constrained or limited within a basin. With the basin being a geological formation that is not subject to different people's judgments but is defined by land masses and submarine features such as continental slopes.

The Southern Ocean doesn't have a continental shelf, submarine ridges, etc to separate it from the Pacific, Indian, or Atlantic Ocean.

Instead the argument is that the circum-Antarctic current (and the circum-polar winds) are such that the movement of the surface water defines the Southern Ocean. So the water of the Southern Ocean, in the strict sense of the water of the circum-Antarctic Current, is different from the water around the S island of NZ, the water in the Great Aus Bight or around Tasmania, the the coastal waters around the C of Good Hope, etc.

Unfortunately, some of that argument was made by Australian oceanographers. And we now know that oceanographers employed by the Aus government were complicit with the Aus govt in lying to the world about a so-called wrinkle in the Earth's crust. That lie allowed the corrupt Aus govt to pretend to the world that the wrinkle was such a significant feature that the border between Timor Leste and Australia should be right close to Timor Leste. And that was important because it meant that Aus got to claim the submarine oil field and the oil. That win by the Aus govt also got the Aus foreign minister of that time a lucrative seat on the board of Woodside, the company waiting to drill the oil.

That nasty corrupt deal has now been reversed (with the Timor Leste-Aus border being moved more correctly to the midpoint between the two baselines). But it opens a new can of worms: the Indonesia-Australia boundary was drawn at a time when Indonesia did not have the capacity to challenge the assertions being made by the Aus govt and its corrupt politicians and scientists. Surprise, surprise, the redelineation of the Timor Leste - Aus sea border makes the Indonesia-Aus boundary look like the joke it always was (i.e. something drawn by Australians for the benefit of Australians). And now Indonesia realises more clearly than before the value to Indonesia of harvesting fish in their territorial waters.

So who do you believe these days, when politicians and scientists corrupt themselves for favours?

For what it is worth, read more about the circum-Antarctic current story of the Southern Ocean here: https://manoa.hawaii.edu/exploringou...rn-ocean-basin
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Old 11-04-2018, 04:03   #5
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Re: Southern Ocean Movement - Towards the South!!!

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Originally Posted by Alan Mighty View Post
My limited understanding is that the notion of a "Southern Ocean" is a bit arbitrary.

The notion of an ocean is that it is constrained or limited within a basin. With the basin being a geological formation that is not subject to different people's judgments but is defined by land masses and submarine features such as continental slopes.

The Southern Ocean doesn't have a continental shelf, submarine ridges, etc to separate it from the Pacific, Indian, or Atlantic Ocean.

Instead the argument is that the circum-Antarctic current (and the circum-polar winds) are such that the movement of the surface water defines the Southern Ocean. So the water of the Southern Ocean, in the strict sense of the water of the circum-Antarctic Current, is different from the water around the S island of NZ, the water in the Great Aus Bight or around Tasmania, the the coastal waters around the C of Good Hope, etc.

Unfortunately, some of that argument was made by Australian oceanographers. And we now know that oceanographers employed by the Aus government were complicit with the Aus govt in lying to the world about a so-called wrinkle in the Earth's crust. That lie allowed the corrupt Aus govt to pretend to the world that the wrinkle was such a significant feature that the border between Timor Leste and Australia should be right close to Timor Leste. And that was important because it meant that Aus got to claim the submarine oil field and the oil. That win by the Aus govt also got the Aus foreign minister of that time a lucrative seat on the board of Woodside, the company waiting to drill the oil.

That nasty corrupt deal has now been reversed (with the Timor Leste-Aus border being moved more correctly to the midpoint between the two baselines). But it opens a new can of worms: the Indonesia-Australia boundary was drawn at a time when Indonesia did not have the capacity to challenge the assertions being made by the Aus govt and its corrupt politicians and scientists. Surprise, surprise, the redelineation of the Timor Leste - Aus sea border makes the Indonesia-Aus boundary look like the joke it always was (i.e. something drawn by Australians for the benefit of Australians). And now Indonesia realises more clearly than before the value to Indonesia of harvesting fish in their territorial waters.

So who do you believe these days, when politicians and scientists corrupt themselves for favours?

For what it is worth, read more about the circum-Antarctic current story of the Southern Ocean here: https://manoa.hawaii.edu/exploringou...rn-ocean-basin
You need to do a little research on the evolution of offshore mineral claims in international law and give up on the nonsensical conspiracy theories.

Historically dominion over lands did not include dominion over adjoining marine areas, jurisdiction was pretty well limited to wherever one could walk.

Cornish tin miners pursued ore out under the sea but were limited to a couple of miles hence the three mile limit.

Oil drillers started drilling in inland lakes, rivers and swamps then pursued the petroleum accumulations into deeper waters offshore and governments desired legal jurisdiction therefor invented the continental shelf mechanism.

The discovery of petroleum in the North Sea created a problem as the continental shelf there is shared by a number of countries. The solution arrived at was the medium line boundaries.

Indonesia wanted to be able to claim all the waters encompassed by their extensive archipelago and consequently were willing to accept the continental shelf principal.

Portugal, as the administering authority in Portuguese Timor, in order to increase the area of their claim would not accede to the continental shelf principal which to that time had prevailed in international law. Oil companies will not spend exploration funds without secure, uncontested title over resources identified.

This was the situation which prevailed until Australia agreed to a formula which allowed petroleum exploration and sharing of the resource with Indonesia even though this required a surrender of Australia's rights under the continental shelf regime.

When Timor gained independence it decided to repudiate the agreement made between the Australian and Indonesian governments. Unfortunately some moronic bureaucrat working under a left wing ratbag government decided to try to gain an advantage in the ongoing negotiations and this opened the door to the repudiation of the agreement reached between the Timorese and Australian governments.

Australia did not invent anything, plate tectonics made it a fact that Timor lies on a separate tectonic plate to Australia, There is a dirty great deep ocean trough lying between the Australian continental shelf and Timor (Have a look at a marine chart) It is also an active subduction zone, which is why oil companies will not build a pipeline to Timor across the trough.

The continental shelf regime provided for a degree of objective certainty in matters of offshore mineral development which is now being destroyed by numerous subjective claims. This will lead to conflicts between countries and the sort of spurious claims to territoriality such as those occurring in the South China Sea.
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Old 11-04-2018, 06:00   #6
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Re: Southern Ocean Movement - Towards the South!!!

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Australia did not invent anything, plate tectonics made it a fact that Timor lies on a separate tectonic plate to Australia, There is a dirty great deep ocean trough lying between the Australian continental shelf and Timor (Have a look at a marine chart) It is also an active subduction zone, which is why oil companies will not build a pipeline to Timor across the trough.
That is certainly the story told to Australians by the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs. I'm sure many Australians believe that story. And Aus DFAT argued that line to the Indonesian government. And then later to the government of Timor Leste.

Here's Hugh Wyndham, one of the dips involved, telling his version of that story: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-in...ions-indonesia

Wyndham certainly seems to believe the story himself. But then good dips have to lie for their country. And to be a good liar, you have to believe the lie, no?

Kim McGrath was instrumental in uncovering the lie and how it happened. She found the original Aus Bureau of Mineral Resources report that showed no, repeat no, oceanic crust at the bottom of the Timor Trough. It's just a wrinkle in the continental shelf.

That Aus BMR report was, of course, well hidden from anyone who knew international law and what the significance of a continuous continental shelf - albeit one with a wrinkle, but not a plate boundary - would be to the Aus-Timor Leste negotiations.

We now know that that was why Aus spies bugged the rooms in which Timor Leste officials met, to make sure that the Timor Leste officials did not have the BMR report. And to make sure that the Aus dips could continue the snow job.

See Kim McGrath's rejoinder to Wyndham's version full of lies, here: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-in...line-timor-sea

You can buy McGrath's book telling the story here: https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Line.../dp/186395936X

You can read about the ethical Australian spy who blew the whistle on the revolting behaviour of Aus diplomats, Aus politicians, etc here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e-house-arrest

And here's a piece about the implications for Timor Leste of the new border agreement: Sun setting on Timor-Leste?s Greater Sunrise plan | East Asia Forum

Should you want to read (and see the map) showing how the new Aus-Timor Leste sea border makes the old Aus-Indonesia sea border look like the joke and snow job that it always was and to read about what might happen next, read here: https://theaseanpost.com/article/wil...ders-australia

And I'll make a personal disclosure: I used to carry a green bag (and take orders from, because he was effectively my employer) the Aus foreign minister who oversaw part of the first round of border negotiations with Timor Leste: the round that delivered the first seaborder between Aus and Timor Leste. That's the unfair border that was drawn over that wrinkle, the Timor Trough. Drawn so the bulk of the oil field was in Aus waters. And yes, that's the foreign minister who got the lucrative seat on the board of the mining company that was going to exploit the oil field.

Of course there's since been another foreign minister, the one that takes a 6% cut of all political party donations that they solicit from business people. You'll see that foreign minister here: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-0...border/9522902
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Old 11-04-2018, 06:10   #7
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pirate Re: Southern Ocean Movement - Towards the South!!!

Wottie..!!!
You created a monster... its moved N to Timor..
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Old 11-04-2018, 06:28   #8
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Re: Southern Ocean Movement - Towards the South!!!

It is amazing what one can learn by reading CF!

Seriously! This is an interesting topic and interesting comments up above. The details are informative.
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And for humor...

I suspect many American boaters think of the Gulf of Mexico as "The Southern Ocean." (Wink)
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Old 11-04-2018, 08:28   #9
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Re: Southern Ocean Movement - Towards the South!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mighty View Post
That is certainly the story told to Australians by the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs. I'm sure many Australians believe that story. And Aus DFAT argued that line to the Indonesian government. And then later to the government of Timor Leste.

Here's Hugh Wyndham, one of the dips involved, telling his version of that story: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-in...ions-indonesia

Wyndham certainly seems to believe the story himself. But then good dips have to lie for their country. And to be a good liar, you have to believe the lie, no?

Kim McGrath was instrumental in uncovering the lie and how it happened. She found the original Aus Bureau of Mineral Resources report that showed no, repeat no, oceanic crust at the bottom of the Timor Trough. It's just a wrinkle in the continental shelf.

That Aus BMR report was, of course, well hidden from anyone who knew international law and what the significance of a continuous continental shelf - albeit one with a wrinkle, but not a plate boundary - would be to the Aus-Timor Leste negotiations.

We now know that that was why Aus spies bugged the rooms in which Timor Leste officials met, to make sure that the Timor Leste officials did not have the BMR report. And to make sure that the Aus dips could continue the snow job.

See Kim McGrath's rejoinder to Wyndham's version full of lies, here: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-in...line-timor-sea

You can buy McGrath's book telling the story here: https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Line.../dp/186395936X

You can read about the ethical Australian spy who blew the whistle on the revolting behaviour of Aus diplomats, Aus politicians, etc here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e-house-arrest

And here's a piece about the implications for Timor Leste of the new border agreement: Sun setting on Timor-Leste?s Greater Sunrise plan | East Asia Forum

Should you want to read (and see the map) showing how the new Aus-Timor Leste sea border makes the old Aus-Indonesia sea border look like the joke and snow job that it always was and to read about what might happen next, read here: https://theaseanpost.com/article/wil...ders-australia

And I'll make a personal disclosure: I used to carry a green bag (and take orders from, because he was effectively my employer) the Aus foreign minister who oversaw part of the first round of border negotiations with Timor Leste: the round that delivered the first seaborder between Aus and Timor Leste. That's the unfair border that was drawn over that wrinkle, the Timor Trough. Drawn so the bulk of the oil field was in Aus waters. And yes, that's the foreign minister who got the lucrative seat on the board of the mining company that was going to exploit the oil field.

Of course there's since been another foreign minister, the one that takes a 6% cut of all political party donations that they solicit from business people. You'll see that foreign minister here: Australia, East Timor sign deal on maritime border, agree to share revenue from Greater Sunrise oil and gas - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
.......yawn.
Quoting the Guardian.
The bastion of #FakeNews
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how long has this been going on and why wasn't I told about it earlier.....
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Old 11-04-2018, 09:04   #10
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Re: Southern Ocean Movement - Towards the South!!!

As an uninvolved bystander I still find this thread valuable.
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Old 11-04-2018, 10:38   #11
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Re: Southern Ocean Movement - Towards the South!!!

"So who do you believe these days, when politicians and scientists corrupt themselves for favours?"

"These days"? How is that limited to "these days"? I would bet that ancient Egyptians were bitching about the same thing back then.
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Old 11-04-2018, 19:28   #12
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Re: Southern Ocean Movement - Towards the South!!!

In the 60's i was a tuna fisherman ( also known now as "fisher" ) out of Port Lincoln in South Australia and we fished in the Bight and a fair way south at times. We never felt like we were in the Indian Ocean and considered it to be the Southern Ocean and it sure felt like it at times. So what ocean was it ???
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Old 11-04-2018, 20:55   #13
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Re: Southern Ocean Movement - Towards the South!!!

Did they try this manoeuvre to include the sandy beaches as well. Like from the tip of the Persian Gulf to the boarder of Syria.
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Old 11-04-2018, 22:25   #14
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Re: Southern Ocean Movement - Towards the South!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mighty View Post
That is certainly the story told to Australians by the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs. I'm sure many Australians believe that story. And Aus DFAT argued that line to the Indonesian government. And then later to the government of Timor Leste.

Here's Hugh Wyndham, one of the dips involved, telling his version of that story: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-in...ions-indonesia

Wyndham certainly seems to believe the story himself. But then good dips have to lie for their country. And to be a good liar, you have to believe the lie, no?

Kim McGrath was instrumental in uncovering the lie and how it happened. She found the original Aus Bureau of Mineral Resources report that showed no, repeat no, oceanic crust at the bottom of the Timor Trough. It's just a wrinkle in the continental shelf.

That Aus BMR report was, of course, well hidden from anyone who knew international law and what the significance of a continuous continental shelf - albeit one with a wrinkle, but not a plate boundary - would be to the Aus-Timor Leste negotiations.

We now know that that was why Aus spies bugged the rooms in which Timor Leste officials met, to make sure that the Timor Leste officials did not have the BMR report. And to make sure that the Aus dips could continue the snow job.

See Kim McGrath's rejoinder to Wyndham's version full of lies, here: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-in...line-timor-sea

You can buy McGrath's book telling the story here: https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Line.../dp/186395936X

You can read about the ethical Australian spy who blew the whistle on the revolting behaviour of Aus diplomats, Aus politicians, etc here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e-house-arrest

And here's a piece about the implications for Timor Leste of the new border agreement: Sun setting on Timor-Leste?s Greater Sunrise plan | East Asia Forum

Should you want to read (and see the map) showing how the new Aus-Timor Leste sea border makes the old Aus-Indonesia sea border look like the joke and snow job that it always was and to read about what might happen next, read here: https://theaseanpost.com/article/wil...ders-australia

And I'll make a personal disclosure: I used to carry a green bag (and take orders from, because he was effectively my employer) the Aus foreign minister who oversaw part of the first round of border negotiations with Timor Leste: the round that delivered the first seaborder between Aus and Timor Leste. That's the unfair border that was drawn over that wrinkle, the Timor Trough. Drawn so the bulk of the oil field was in Aus waters. And yes, that's the foreign minister who got the lucrative seat on the board of the mining company that was going to exploit the oil field.

Of course there's since been another foreign minister, the one that takes a 6% cut of all political party donations that they solicit from business people. You'll see that foreign minister here: Australia, East Timor sign deal on maritime border, agree to share revenue from Greater Sunrise oil and gas - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
I bet Elvis was involved in all that spying stuff also.

Timor lies on the southern boundary of the Eurasian Plate. Australia constitutes most of the Australian Plate as does New Guinea. Consequently we share a continental shelf with New Guinea and the boundary reflects this. We don't share any continental shelf with any of the islands to the west of the plate boundary which runs North South at the east end of Timor.There are a lot more geological indicators from which to draw the conclusion as to whether or not plate boundaries adjoined.

If the Australian Plate is subducting under the Eurasian Plate of course there is no oceanic crust. If you are looking for oceanic crust around the Australia Plate you need to look to the south, east and north east.

The lay people of East Timor would probably be far better off if they had surrendered the oil to Australia and used that fact to shame us into development aid, you can be pretty sure more of it would filter down than ever will under the existing creole leadership.
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Old 12-04-2018, 05:44   #15
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Re: Southern Ocean Movement - Towards the South!!!

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Wottie..!!!
You created a monster... its moved N to Timor..
Sure sounds like it

Actually I did find the off-topic posts / comments interesting having worked on off-shore oil / gas installations in the disputed area.
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