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Old 15-11-2014, 06:17   #16
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Re: South Pacific Charts - Are you selling/not needing/getting rid of yours?

Holy WTF Batman....
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Old 15-11-2014, 08:41   #17
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Re: South Pacific Charts - Are you selling/not needing/getting rid of yours?

Clearly not all posts or posters are created equal...

I'd love to get a snapshot survey of all the cruisers in the South Pacific and find out exactly what they have on board in terms of paper charts... that would be a telling story.

Google Earth is a good idea. I've been meaning to sort out the Google Earth / OpenCPN combo thing for years now and haven't made the time to do it.
Im getting a new laptop shortly and intend to finally get this working.

As for paper charts... Small scale charts are pretty important so you can navigate after a lightening strike or other massive electrical failure. I like using paper charts in the open ocean... in fact I enjoy using paper charts full stop. In an ideal world, we'd all have the small scale paper charts for every possible eventuality. However, the world is going digital fast, and when you can have 3 tablets on standby, all with different source charts loaded...

It does my head in, how expensive charts are, but I have, thus far avoided the temptation to copy anything or even acquire the CM93.

<newsbreak>
It looks like you can download a lot of the South Pacific charts from LINZ and therefore print them yourself. The .tiff files seem to be an OK resolution (for printing). I imagine you could find a print shop that would print these out on suitable size/quality paper for $5 or so?
The copyright is under creative commons - ie. you can legitimately copy these.
They do come with a warning...
"Chart images downloaded from this site: are not to be used for navigation; are not corrected for Notices to Mariners."
...but you can download all of the Notices to Mariners from the same site.
It would be a bit of work to compile all these / deal with the notices etc, but it would save you a lot of money.

I've only just discovered this, and it looks like you can get a lot of the South Pacific charts - 14607 (French Polynesia) for example, is not available for download.

Link here: http://www.linz.govt.nz/sea/charts/p...hart-catalogue

I would love to hear form someone who has actually done this.
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Old 15-11-2014, 08:55   #18
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Re: South Pacific Charts - Are you selling/not needing/getting rid of yours?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
"charts are for dreaming; eyeballs are for navigation."
I might have to borrow that phrase myself, Ann.
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Old 15-11-2014, 09:31   #19
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Re: South Pacific Charts - Are you selling/not needing/getting rid of yours?

Here is a link to a directory listing of (I assume for now) all the charts made available from LINZ:

charts.linz.govt.nz - /tifs/

can't get an accessible listing for the JPGs.
my downloader is busy grabbing all the files - I can upload a zip file with all the charts if anyone is interested.

aloha
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Old 15-11-2014, 09:51   #20
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Re: South Pacific Charts - Are you selling/not needing/getting rid of yours?

Funny... My downloader is also busy downloading them all... you're slowing me down yalla!

The jpgs are lower quality (i think), so you probably don't want those anyway.

edit: I am still dubious around the usefullness of these charts - just getting my head around the extent of the ntms.
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Old 15-11-2014, 13:02   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harding View Post
Jim,
Here a update to your knowledge:
Inmostwaters, any sail witha recreational craftunder 15meters, former 20GT, without needingpermissionfrom any authorityand without having topayany kind ofcertificate, This freedom tosailleads manyto believethat there are norules and regulationsforrecreationalboating. BUTtheres.a lot.</SPAN>
To amarinermadetheclaimthat hemust notbea drytheoristor a "Dog Heaven" who live on the'Our Lord's additional allocation.</SPAN>
Since the formation ofthe IMO(International MaritimeOrganization)hasSOLASand navigationsafetyheard duringIMO'sresponsibility.InSOLASis requiredandnauticalcharts and nauticalpublications onboard ships.Listed as"Safety ofNavigation".</SPAN>
The navigator ofa recreational craftare required tofamiliarize themselves withthe orders, rulesand sailingregulations applicableto shippinginthewaters, the vessel is trading, and at such locationsasthe vessel land. In addition, the provisions Watchkeepingalsoapply torecreationalboaters.</SPAN>
There is noequipmentrequirement for chartson boats, but the watchkeepingnoticedescribesherea procedurewhichinclude and based onthe use ofcharts.
This noticealso apply torecreational craft.</SPAN></SPAN>

IMOinIMOSOLASV/2definedthe term"a chart":</SPAN>
“2.2 Nautical chart or nautical publication is a special-purpose map or book, or a specially compiled database from which such a map or book is derived, that is issued officially by or on the authority of a Government, authorized Hydrographic Office or other relevant government institution and is designed to meet the requirements of marine navigation.”
Therefore homemade or commercial spaghetti chart is not a part of navigation onboard.
Only Vesselsexclusivelyfor racing, rowing, rowingtraining, canoes, kayaks, gondolas, pedalos,windsurfers,surfboards,powered surfboards, historical craftdesigned before 1950,experimental craft, commercialinland waterway vessels, submersibles, air cushion vehicles, hydrofoilsandsteam-poweredvessels are free from having official updated charts onboard.
Harding
Can anyone explain what this means, or quote an authority for these statements, or show why it applies to a non-commercial vessel plying international waters, or show who enforces the rules if they are really rules?

It sounds "official", but goes against conventional wisdom as experienced in the real world of cruising.

I'm confused...

Jim
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Old 15-11-2014, 14:45   #22
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Re: South Pacific Charts - Are you selling/not needing/getting rid of yours?

I did some sleuthing and I think this comes from the Danish Ministry of something-er-ather.
I'm still none-the-wiser, but I feel smarter now
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Old 15-11-2014, 15:27   #23
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Re: South Pacific Charts - Are you selling/not needing/getting rid of yours?

Jim,

IMO was formally formed under a UN conference in 1948. There were, however, take 10 years before the IMO Convention entered into force. IMO aims to:
1) support cooperation between states in law in all technical areas concerning shipping engaged in international voyages.
2) support the highest possible standard in cases concerning maritime safety, efficiency of navigation and prevention and control of pollution from ships.
3) work with administrative and judicial proceedings relating to the above.

Memberstates: IMO | Member States

Solas chapter V contents:
https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/c4/solasv/index.html

Harding
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Old 15-11-2014, 16:20   #24
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Re: South Pacific Charts - Are you selling/not needing/getting rid of yours?

Harding, that is a formidable body of regulations, and I don't propose to read through them all. But, an inspection of the introductory remarks shows that the regs are directed primarily at vessels of at least 150 GRT. For smaller vessels the regs that I see are directed solely at those in some form of commercial service.

As far as I can easily determine, small sailing yachts in non-commercial usage are not bound by these regulations. This is certainly the universal interpretation by yotties in all the countries that we have yet visited.

If I am wrong, then so are literally tens of thousands of others sailing in this part of the world. Even the overprotective nanny state of Australia does not impose IMO regulations upon us.

Jim
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Old 15-11-2014, 16:46   #25
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Re: South Pacific Charts - Are you selling/not needing/getting rid of yours?

I remember finding when visiting Vanuatu that the best charts were the ones prepared by the French navy in 1895. My brand new C Map chip was useless. Many islands were just shown as a green blob. Seeing myself anchored on top of a hill was a little disconcerting but it did make me scramble up the companionway just to check.
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Old 16-11-2014, 12:21   #26
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Re: South Pacific Charts - Are you selling/not needing/getting rid of yours?

Jim,
Yes its a formidable body of regulations. Only few i able to read all this.
For sailors its more than 100 Laws, regulations ect.
The link was to the origin from IMO.

IMO write on their site:

IMO was established to adopt legislation. Governments are responsible for implementing it. When a Government accepts an IMO Convention it agrees to make it part of its own national law and to enforce it just like any other law. The problem is that some countries lack the expertise, experience and resources necessary to do this properly. Others perhaps put enforcement fairly low down their list of priorities.
The main purpose of IMO is to adopt international treaties which are intended to apply to as many ships as possible. Unanimity of this kind inevitably takes time - it depends on the speed with which Governments act, as well as IMO - and it can only be achieved at all by ensuring that the regulations adopted are very widely acceptable and this can take time.
But when speed is necessary IMO can act very rapidly indeed.

One of their main issues is: Watchkeeping arrangements and principles.
This issue must be the same for alle boats undepending of size.
The Scandinavian countries act as pioniers under chairmanship of Denmark for changing to e-navigation also for creationboats with the International Standard IEC62376.

Imagine if you could receive all relevant forecasts for current, wind, waves and water levels along your route at once? And see the information from a navigation warning on the position, warning belong to? When using updated official charts, in a SENC format for a fraction of Commercial providers.
Thats the reality for 14 europeen countries and northamerica
without violation of the law.
Depending on each flagcountry, the update from notice to mariners, vary from 24H to few times a year.
Thats a lot better than Electronic copy more than 20 years old without updates.

Look up for product using vectorized S-57 chart data from National Maritime Administrations. The chart presentation is based on professional standards for ECDISS (Electronic Chart Display and Information System).

Harding





Watchkeeping arrangements and principles
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Old 16-11-2014, 13:02   #27
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Re: South Pacific Charts - Are you selling/not needing/getting rid of yours?

Requirement to carry nautical publications
3.)
a.) All ships, except those listed in para. 1 above, shall carry-
i.) Charts, as defined in Regulation 2.2 or an electronic chart display and information system (ECDIS) using Electronic Navigational Charts (ENCs) or Raster Navigational Charts (RNCs) to meet the requirements of  Regulation 19.2.1.4 with the necessary back-up arrangements required by Regulation 19.2.1.5. The back-up arrangements may either be duplication of the ECDIS or a reduced folio of paper charts. (ANNEX 14 - Electronic charts contains MCA guidance and also includes IMO SN Circ/207 “Differences between RCDS and ECDIS”.) Advice on determining suitable backup is given in MGN 285; and ii.) such adequate and up to date sailing directions, lists of lights, notices to mariners, tide tables and other nautical publications, as defined in Regulation 2.2 to meet the requirements of  Regulation 19.2.1.4;

Nautical publications presented in electronic format are acceptable when issued by or on the authority of an authorised Hydrographic office or other relevant Government institution. Recommendations for system installation and use aboard ships are included at Section 6.
b.) All sea-going passenger ships, and all other ships of 300 gt or more and all other ships required by SOLAS to carry a radio installation, shall carry the International Code of Signals published by the International Maritime Organization. (See Regulation 21)
All ships to carry Volume III of the IAMSAR Manual (See Regulation 21 and the Guidance note which lists MCA exceptions to this requirement.)

Furthermore to comply with the Radio Regulations published by the International Telecommunications Union (ITU), ships to which the Merchant Shipping (Radio Installation) Regulations (SI 1998/2070) apply i.e. passenger ships and other ships of 300 gt or more on international voyages, when provided with equipment for use in sea areas A2, A3 or A4 i.e. beyond VHF range of coast stations, shall also carry the following publications of the ITU:

  • List VIIA, the Alphabetical List of Call Signs and Numerical Table of Identity of Stations.

  • The Manual for Use by the Maritime Mobile and Maritime Mobile Satellite Services.

Paragraph 1 from above:
General
1.) Regulation SOLAS V/1.4 allows Administrations to determine to what extent Regulations 15 to 28 apply to smaller vessels and fishing vessels. In the case of Regulation 19.2.1.4 the carriage requirements for charts and publications do not apply to the following:
a.) UK Ships of Class V.
b.) UK Ships which are neither passenger ships nor seagoing.
c.) New ships of class A,B,C or D
d.) Fishing vessels
e.) Pleasure vessels under 150 gt.

It looks like to me unless you are a pleasure vessel over 150 gt. the regulations don't apply.
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Old 16-11-2014, 15:17   #28
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Re: South Pacific Charts - Are you selling/not needing/getting rid of yours?

Quote:
1.) Regulation SOLAS V/1.4 allows Administrations to determine to what extent Regulations 15 to 28 apply to smaller vessels and fishing vessels. In the case of Regulation 19.2.1.4 the carriage requirements for charts and publications do not apply to the following:
a.) UK Ships of Class V.
b.) UK Ships which are neither passenger ships nor seagoing.
c.) New ships of class A,B,C or D
d.) Fishing vessels
e.) Pleasure vessels under 150 gt.

It looks like to me unless you are a pleasure vessel over 150 gt. the regulations don't apply.
Exactly w hat I have been attempting to say for some while now.

For Harding: I can agree that all these rules are beneficial at some level, but they just do not apply BY LAW to cruising yachts of the size most of us (perhaps all of us) own and operate.

Having a full portfolio of current charts is a great idea until one must pay for them, store them and then use them in lieu of their non-ECDISS chartplotter. Not going to happen for most of us.

Jim
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Old 16-11-2014, 15:46   #29
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Re: South Pacific Charts - Are you selling/not needing/getting rid of yours?

You forgot:

Small craft
2.) All small-craft users should note that Regulation 34 (Safe navigation and avoidance of dangerous situations) is not listed in Regulation 1.4 and therefore applies to ALL SHIPS ON ALL VOYAGES (Regulation 1.1). The definition of “ship” in this respect includes all small watercraft. Operators of small craft of the categories listed above should therefore have sufficient charts and published information on board to be able to plan the intended voyage and execute it safely. When the type and structure of a small vessel means that it is impracticable to carry charts and publications, the crew should have sufficient knowledge of the area of intended operation and of all local dangers and regulations so that they can complete the intended voyage in safety.

Regulation 34 - Safe navigation and avoidance of dangerous situations Summary
  • Voyage planning is required on all vessels which go to sea.
  • Master to ensure plan is drawn up.
  • Details of factors to take into account.
Regulation 34 1. Prior to proceeding to sea, the master shall ensure that the intended voyage has been planned using the appropriate nautical charts and nautical publications for the area concerned, taking into account the guidelines and recommendations developed by the Organization.*
2. The voyage plan shall identify a route which:
2.1 takes into account any relevant ships' routeing systems
2.2 ensures sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the ship throughout the voyage
2.3 anticipates all known navigational hazards and adverse weather conditions; and
2.4 takes into account the marine environmental protection measures that apply, and avoids, as far as possible, actions and activities which could cause damage to the environment
*Refer to the Guidelines for Voyage Planning, adopted by the Organization by Resolution A.893(21)
MCA Guidance 1. Reg. 34 applies to all ships which proceed to sea.
2. The Regulation requires the voyage to be planned in accordance with the IMO Guidelines for Voyage Planning - Resolution A.893(21) (issued as SN/Circ.92) The Regulation authorises the Master to take voyage planning decisions for safety or environmental reasons.
3. It is important to note that Regulation 34 makes a properly prepared voyage plan mandatory and the plan is liable to be checked during port State control inspections.
4. Small vessels and pleasure craft - Regulation 34 applies to all vessels. For small vessels and pleasure-craft the degree of voyage planning will be depend upon the size of vessel, its crew and the length of the voyage. The MCA expects all mariners to make a careful assessment of any proposed voyage taking into account all dangers to navigation, weather forecasts, tidal predictions and other relevant factors including the competence of the crew.
5. See also Regulation 34.1 Master's Discretion.
[The paragraph originally in this Regulation covering Master's Discretion was redrafted as (new) Regulation 34.1. The change came into force on 1 July 2006.]

Associated Documents Annex 24 - Voyage Planning: MCA Guidance Notes
Annex 25 - Voyage Planning: IMO Resolution A.893


Translation from the official statement from GST (Geodatastyrelsen) DK.

Laws and regulations
See. DMA, so there is no equipment requirements for charts on boats, but see. Pickets The notice describes here a procedure which include based on the use of charts.
Pickets The notice also apply to recreational craft.

Harding
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