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Old 04-07-2013, 15:21   #346
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Thank you for a very in depth idea of what may have been happening.

Kudos will never be enough for the raft. Gosh was he right about crowd sourcing. I mean when RCC called me and asked me. I had no idea. I haven't seen Nina for a year and still couldn't tell you equipment type etc. put the question on the forum and soon had complete info. I think even RCC was impressed how fast info came in.

Thanks all, hoping for the Nina limping into port soon scenario!!
Cherie
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Old 04-07-2013, 15:25   #347
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Forwarded to Laz regarding the QRZ question.

Cherie
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Old 04-07-2013, 15:31   #348
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Re: Schooner Nina - MERGED 3 THREADS

Friend of Nina asked if boats stabilize like fixed wing aircraft where the flight controls are let go and the aircraft stabilizes.

Perhaps, as a pilot, Nina understands that not all fixed wing aircraft are dynamically stable as inferred. Mostly the rag and tube but even some "more modern day" aircraft are definitely not so stable that to let go of the controls the aircraft fly itself out of uncommanded flight. That is to say, one needs to always be on the controls lest one depart from controlled flight. Even elevator or rudder trim may be insufficient to compensate for the control forces.

I mention this to showcase the point that a 1928 schooner may or may not be as dynamically stable as suggested. Certainly did the architects and builders of that time understand the principals and how to design/build to allow for them. But did they in the build for Nina? And what of the intervening years? How has she been maintained?

Most pilots are aware of the requirements (mostly regulatory) of maintenance and inspections to keep a plane airworthy. But they may be unaware that a myriad of repairs (or replacement of equipment) over the years, while each repair being within tolerance, the cumulative effect is the plane may be unairworthy. A notable example of this is when an airplane is reweighed it is revealed the aircraft exceeds it's design weight. Other than 14CFR121 (USA) there is no requirement for an aircraft to be weighed on a schedule.

And that is to allude to the allegation, if only speculative, that Nina is not to her original design. What does this have to do with SV NINA is to say she may drift or come to in weather not as expected if relying on original design.

Are boats as sensitive as aircraft to external forces? Yes.
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Old 04-07-2013, 15:52   #349
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New poster but one thing I keep wondering is, has anyone contacted David's mother's phone company?

I saw an interview with her in which she says she's positive that David tried to call her... June 13ish? But the static was bad.

If you get a hold of the phone company (or rather if David's mother does), maybe they can tell her the number the call came from? That's assuming she knows the day and approx time...

It may be worth a shot, for no other reason than to determine if it was in fact David, and that they were still alive at that point. That may add some weight with NZ RCC if they are decoding whether to keep looking or call off the search....

Worth a shot if it hasn't been tried yet....
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Old 04-07-2013, 15:56   #350
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One thing to add..,,there's probably some time tonight still to run with this angle and time is of the essence (ie. my phone company takes calls til 8pm) and the time difference means NZ RCC can potentially use the info today still.
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Old 04-07-2013, 16:03   #351
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FWIW, this is my take on things:

- Nina was well maintained. I was shown ribs that were recently replaced and all looked first class, top shipswright class work. I'm always tough on things concerning maintenance and equipment of boats as all here know, but there was nothing that caught my eye at all.

- Nina was low on technology and you can be sure I let them know my thoughts about that. There was no SSB. No AIS either IIRC. David explained me that it was his choice to not get all the gadgets and he was well aware of the possible consequences. I can respect that.

- When David wrote that sails were ripped, he meant they were beyond repair. But this was just the storm sails and I am sure there were enough sails left to use after the storm.

- I read people explaining that the communication is lost when the masts are lost. This might happen with the VHF radio, but both the Iridium phone (which was a portable handheld IIRC), the SPOT communicator and the EPIRB do not need any masts. I find that a bunch of gear to all fail. The EPIRB and the Iridium phone should just work in that area, but I'm not sure about the SPOT. Still, that leaves multiple pieces of gear to fail to loose all communications.
They may have run out of power though. And water damage is also possible. Was the EPIRB battery still okay? I don't know. Do they have a handheld VHF?

My personal guess at the situation is not too good, but my hope is on the liferaft and skills to improvise and survive.

Possible coastlines or reefs that they end up... how remote are they?

Still hoping here...
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Old 04-07-2013, 16:29   #352
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Re: Schooner Nina - MERGED 3 THREADS

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post


I know many other posters have an idea that its best to be very optimistic to friends and relatives... I know not why, and what happens when wreckage is found? Do they say: "Well, of COURSE, but I didnt want to tell you so!"?


And what do the "realists" say when, against the odds, the vessel limps into port somewhere through the mist? "Well, of COURSE, but we didn't want to get your hopes up!"?

I suppose that's the value of a forum: you get input from a range of people.

The Smeetons in their 46 foot wooden ketch, TZU HANG, were dismasted twice in the "icy seas" of the South Atlantic, at about 50 degrees south. Hardly the tropics. Or was that the exception?!
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Old 04-07-2013, 16:45   #353
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Re: Schooner Nina - MERGED 3 THREADS

Does anyone know if the Orion P3 can act as a mobile cell tower and send / receive calls to / from cellphones that would normally be out of range?
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Old 04-07-2013, 16:55   #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
FWIW, this is my take on things:

- Nina was well maintained. I was shown ribs that were recently replaced and all looked first class, top shipswright class work. I'm always tough on things concerning maintenance and equipment of boats as all here know, but there was nothing that caught my eye at all.

- Nina was low on technology and you can be sure I let them know my thoughts about that. There was no SSB. No AIS either IIRC. David explained me that it was his choice to not get all the gadgets and he was well aware of the possible consequences. I can respect that.

- When David wrote that sails were ripped, he meant they were beyond repair. But this was just the storm sails and I am sure there were enough sails left to use after the storm.

- I read people explaining that the communication is lost when the masts are lost. This might happen with the VHF radio, but both the Iridium phone (which was a portable handheld IIRC), the SPOT communicator and the EPIRB do not need any masts. I find that a bunch of gear to all fail. The EPIRB and the Iridium phone should just work in that area, but I'm not sure about the SPOT. Still, that leaves multiple pieces of gear to fail to loose all communications.
They may have run out of power though. And water damage is also possible. Was the EPIRB battery still okay? I don't know. Do they have a handheld VHF?

My personal guess at the situation is not too good, but my hope is on the liferaft and skills to improvise and survive.

Possible coastlines or reefs that they end up... how remote are they?

Still hoping here...
Jedi, you post makes total sense, thank you
It my personal choice for gadgets as you call them, it gives me a great sense of security that if something goes badly wrong I can let the outside world know.
Thanks again
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Old 04-07-2013, 17:00   #355
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Re: Schooner Nina - MERGED 3 THREADS

Just doing some further digging to see if there had been any contact from Evi's callsign.

The last APRS contact I can find appears to be from a previous voyage in December 2012 here: Google Maps APRS

There would therefore appear to be nothing from this voyage on APRS.
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Old 04-07-2013, 17:14   #356
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Re: Schooner Nina - MERGED 3 THREADS

My sister Mary was on the Nina for a race in 92' and she told me that David does everything the "old fashioned way" on the boat--that's the kind of sailor he is.
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Old 04-07-2013, 17:30   #357
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Re: Schooner Nina - MERGED 3 THREADS

Quote:
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Does anyone know if the Orion P3 can act as a mobile cell tower and send / receive calls to / from cellphones that would normally be out of range?
I doubt it

However it would be easy to check the number the call came from-- either ring the mobile provider or look online at the call log. The mobile provider would also probably be able to determine the cell tower the call used, unless it was routed through some other provider's network, in which case some coordination would be required.
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Old 04-07-2013, 17:40   #358
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Re: Schooner Nina - MERGED 3 THREADS

I don't think there is any way that Evi would have removed her HF radio from Wonderland and installed it on Nina when only crewing on a short trip.

Many boats sail now without HF radio if they have an Iridium phone so I think it is safe to say the only long range communications was the Iridium and the Spot.
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Old 04-07-2013, 17:48   #359
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Okay those that ask about the P3s in themselves they are old. I think they were called Electras and as a kid flying from Miami to Cleveland took over 4 hours. They probably are equipped with high tech gear but in themselves right there with Nina.

Yes on my brother he insisted keeping tradition on the Nina. I remember when we visited in Greece took 5 people to do the anchor.

All his employers liked David keeping a tight ship. Even the ones he captained but not owned were painted, scrubbed and kept in working order.

Maybe even King Neptune wants Nina in his possession!

Reference to my mom and phone call from David got on a regular basis but being so distressed , she's confused but now not sure of when. I will call Iridium tomorrow as today a holiday.

Again, God speed until the next update! Cherie
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Old 04-07-2013, 17:57   #360
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Just for clarification, I meant regular landline phone company (ie. in Canada it's Rogers or Bell) not Iridium. Also, if Iridium services are world wide, they should at least have tech support or customer service even if it IS the 4th of July.
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