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Old 10-01-2017, 05:58   #31
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Re: Replacing Charts

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Originally Posted by chuckr View Post
We just sailed the entire Black Sea using only Navonics on a RayMarine chartplotter and as a backup and planning tool OpenCPN with CM93 charts.
We did pick up one paper chart and that was for the Bosphorus Straits as it was recommended by a retired Turkish Air Force general who is a sailor and talked to us about going up the Bosphorus. We used the paper chart to find the counter currents and use them to our advantage.
The only other paper chart we have on board is an Atlantic chart that we used on our Atlantic crossing so we could chart our position each day. Beyond that we have a ton of cruising guides and some when new are very old.
I also do most of my planning with OpenCPN, and it is a simply brilliant tool for this, especially when paired with a large, high resolution monitor. It's still not quite as good an overview as a proper paper chart, but gets close enough to be useful.

I have also found the CM93 charts, although they are by now very long out of date, to be extremely useful for planning purposes. I now have paid charts for most of my cruising area, but I don't hesitate to use CM93 in the gaps.
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Old 10-01-2017, 07:05   #32
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Re: Replacing Charts

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Umm, DH,do you operate your boat in such a way that you are likely to hit a newly constructed oil rig or pier because it isn't on a chart?
...
Anyhow, my observation that many cruisers manage successfully without the latest charts still stands. I make no claim that this is best practice... only that it is common practice, and with few known evil consequences. And that it is not a specific legal requirement for recreational vessels of American registry.

Jim
Jim,

The thread starter began: "I do not own a boat yet...!"

Do you really want to tell a novice: "Never mind your charts, just go and sail!"

I for myself want to know my risk and then decide for myself, if it is worth it and can I bear it, if I loose.

You followed this thread, you might have noticed, I even check Google Earth for uncharted dangers and I use GE2KAP to make Google Earth chart overlays DownloadÂ* since I broke a daggerboard on a wrongly charted reef (sea was brown water from a river). More info: KAP Files
Terry

What you describe is daily live we all know, but not the possible risk. Let him know the risk and decide for himself.

Fact is, the skipper must have up to date knowledge of his sailing area. How is his problem he maybe must explain a maritime judge and, so he has, his insurance

Today you have free web-access to the newest charts (Navionics) and huge areas for about 50$ on a tablet, same chart as on the big plotters. If one can not afford that, he should better not invest in yachting.

Of topic, but insurance, a friend right now has a big problem with his insurance, he was on a mooring in Puerto Galera, considered a hurricane hole, when a storm came up with up to 80kn. Moorings broke, his boat damaged three others, he was damaged by another. But the third party liability of his insurances refuses to pay for the others damage, argument is: Force Majeur! No insurance for a Typhoon! But the 3 others demand repair from him!
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Old 10-01-2017, 07:38   #33
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Re: Replacing Charts

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Originally Posted by Kelkara View Post
Here you go for Canada:

Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations, 1995

So if you're in Canada or on a Canadian boat ... small boats don't need them in familiar waters, but otherwise you do. How many people actually comply, or whether it is enforced, is another matter entirely. Other countries = other laws of course, but some may well be similar.
Interesting that electronic charts are fine as long as long as you have a device that can read them - well, duh! You did not post the part of the regulation that requires backup - note that the backup does not have to be in the form of paper charts - a second electronic system is fine. In our case, we have a chart plotter as our primary navigation system with an iPad with Navionics charts as a back up. It should be noted that a great many large ships do not have paper charts these days. I would be willing to bet real money that paper charts will not be published any more within 20 years.
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Old 10-01-2017, 08:34   #34
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Re: Replacing Charts

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Originally Posted by AiniA View Post
Interesting that electronic charts are fine as long as long as you have a device that can read them - well, duh! You did not post the part of the regulation that requires backup - note that the backup does not have to be in the form of paper charts - a second electronic system is fine. In our case, we have a chart plotter as our primary navigation system with an iPad with Navionics charts as a back up.
It might seem like "well duh!" but unfortunately not. Although good enough for most recreational boat purposes, neither of your plotters is an ECDIS, so not considered an acceptable alternative to paper charts under the Canadian law. The letter of the law also specifies that the charts have to be government issued - which Navionics is not.

Although (assuming you know how to operate your plotter) it might meet the condition of having "sufficient knowledge for safe navigation", which appears to act as a clause allowing the whole law to be overlooked for small boats ... until there is an accident involving a navigational error.

I don't think many Canadians lose sleep over these regulations, you either believe that you already have "sufficient knowledge for safe navigation" and just go sailing; or you don't, and you buy more charts, then go sailing. The chart police are only going to ask questions after you've run aground on a well-charted island.
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Old 10-01-2017, 16:59   #35
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Re: Replacing Charts

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Originally Posted by blubaju View Post
Jim,

The thread starter began: "I do not own a boat yet...!"

Do you really want to tell a novice: "Never mind your charts, just go and sail!"

I for myself want to know my risk and then decide for myself, if it is worth it and can I bear it, if I loose.

You followed this thread, you might have noticed, I even check Google Earth for uncharted dangers and I use GE2KAP to make Google Earth chart overlays DownloadÂ* since I broke a daggerboard on a wrongly charted reef (sea was brown water from a river). More info: KAP Files
Terry

What you describe is daily live we all know, but not the possible risk. Let him know the risk and decide for himself.

Fact is, the skipper must have up to date knowledge of his sailing area. How is his problem he maybe must explain a maritime judge and, so he has, his insurance

Today you have free web-access to the newest charts (Navionics) and huge areas for about 50$ on a tablet, same chart as on the big plotters. If one can not afford that, he should better not invest in yachting.

Of topic, but insurance, a friend right now has a big problem with his insurance, he was on a mooring in Puerto Galera, considered a hurricane hole, when a storm came up with up to 80kn. Moorings broke, his boat damaged three others, he was damaged by another. But the third party liability of his insurances refuses to pay for the others damage, argument is: Force Majeur! No insurance for a Typhoon! But the 3 others demand repair from him!
No worries on my end! I can read a chart, boat or no boat.
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Old 10-01-2017, 17:02   #36
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Re: Replacing Charts

Are your e charts up to date? :>)
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Old 10-01-2017, 18:26   #37
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Re: Replacing Charts

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Originally Posted by Kelkara View Post
It might seem like "well duh!" but unfortunately not. Although good enough for most recreational boat purposes, neither of your plotters is an ECDIS, so not considered an acceptable alternative to paper charts under the Canadian law. The letter of the law also specifies that the charts have to be government issued - which Navionics is not.

To start, the Regulation you quoted is dated 1995, perhaps it should be updated to reflect current and evolving technology.

To continue, your statements do not reflect the regulation. For example,
in the regulation an ECDIS means an electronic chart display and information system. Don't see how a Raymarine system does not qualify; (SVCEI)

Similarly a chart is defined as a nautical chart; no indication that it must be 'government issued'. BTW, most of the data on an electronic chart comes from government hydrological sources, sometimes abetted with private data, e.g. in the Explorer charts for the Bahamas (paper and electronic).


Although (assuming you know how to operate your plotter) it might meet the condition of having "sufficient knowledge for safe navigation", which appears to act as a clause allowing the whole law to be overlooked for small boats ... until there is an accident involving a navigational error.

I don't think many Canadians lose sleep over these regulations, you either believe that you already have "sufficient knowledge for safe navigation" and just go sailing; or you don't, and you buy more charts, then go sailing. The chart police are only going to ask questions after you've run aground on a well-charted island.
When we were prepping to cross the Pacific I bought something over 120 charts (I believed all the Internet discussion about not having paper charts being unseaworthy and likely to result in my death when I hit something that was not shown on Navionics. Turns out that I looked at precisely one of them because the electronic chart showed no detail for Pitcairn Island. I whipped out my Pitcairn chart and found a similar amount of detail - perhaps not a surprise since the electronic chart data of course comes from government sources. The paper chart had one bonus piece of information - at the bottom of the Pitcairn section of the chart was a statement indicating how inaccurate the position of the island was on the chart - something like one km as I remember.

When we crossed the Indian Ocean including southern Indonesia and for the Atlantic from Cape Town back to Canada we only had electronics (and cruising guides in the areas where they existed) and had no problems. Can't think of any of the circumnavigators we met who were using paper charts - cost is a major consideration in this. Talked to officers from a 300,000 tonne tanker and a cruise ship - neither vessel had a single paper chart onboard. The world has changed - for the better I think.
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Old 10-01-2017, 20:20   #38
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Re: Replacing Charts

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To start, the Regulation you quoted is dated 1995, perhaps it should be updated to reflect current and evolving technology.
I'm not commenting on the wisdom of the law ... someone just asked to see where such laws might exist, so I pointed one out.

Since after looking it up, I did read it ... I'll just clarify your last two points:

Quote:
To continue, your statements do not reflect the regulation. For example,
in the regulation an ECDIS means an electronic chart display and information system. Don't see how a Raymarine system does not qualify; (SVCEI)
9 Every ECDIS shall meet the performance standards set out in the annex to IMO Resolution A.817(19), yadda yadda yadda.

Your Raymarine plotter may come close to this standard but I suspect it falls short somewhere... even if it's only this part:
9.2 The effective size of the chart presentation for route monitoring should be at least 270 mm by 270 mm

Quote:
Similarly a chart is defined as a nautical chart; no indication that it must be 'government issued'.
ENC means an electronic navigational chart database that
(b) is issued for use with an ECDIS on the authority of the Canadian Hydrographic Service or a hydrographic office authorized by the government of a country other than Canada.


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Old 10-01-2017, 21:45   #39
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Re: Replacing Charts

Just adding another vote to the "always carry paper charts" group.

I have had my chart plotter fail while sailing near land. I was glad to have my paper charts immediately available.

I have open cpn on my laptop, but that doesn't fire up as quickly as I can open my chart book. It also doesn't work great in direct sunlight, is very liable to damage if I use it in poor weather, etc.

I also intentionally bought a chartbook with data from a different survey than my chart plotter. I have found at least two reefs on my paper charts not marked on my chart plotter.

One was near an anchorage, so I checked it out by dinghy and sure enough, it was there four feet below me, despite my chart plotter listing that location as 9 feet. I talked to a local surveyor and he said he responds to survey requests frequently from people who hit that reef.

I now check both sources (plus the guide book) everytime I enter a new-to-me harbor. There is disagreement very frequently between these sources. I just avoid anything listed on any of them to play it safe until I can check it out in person to find out the reality.

I also like that it is easier to mark up a chart than my plotter. When my buddy boat would radio in on a recent passage, I found it easier to plot their position on the paper chart than scrolling around on my chart plotter.

If cruising, many boats will exchange charts if they are going opposite directions, so the cost of entry can be quite low.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 10-01-2017, 22:33   #40
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Re: Replacing Charts

If you want up to date charts, electronic or paper, maintaining & updating them can easily be more than a full time job. Especially when you consider how much work goes into collecting the info for, & disseminating Notices to Mariners. IE; it's more than a full time job for a large governmental agency in but one small region alone. Not withstanding that you may travel over 1,000nm in a week's cruising. And thus cover/cross dozens of regions & jurisdictions. Such is plain old fact.

Another bit is that the more experience you have underway, & piloting, the less charts are needed, to a point. Yes, the basic info on areas new to you is needed, but with smart judgement, a lot of the finer bits are nice to have items, not needs.

Consider the guys who first made the charts/surveys. They had Zero idea of what the topography/hydrography of a region was like, & yet a great many of those ships sailed tens of thousands of miles sans incident, with only the most basic of nav. equip (if that). So while charts are important...

Also, there are things that cannot be done with electronic charts, ditto the reverse. Such as large scale voyage or approach planning on a 3-4' paper chart (or bigger), set on a table/chart table where everyone can see it. Or (electronically) describing the multiple legs of one's approach with a few clicks of the mouse.
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Old 10-01-2017, 23:03   #41
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Re: Replacing Charts

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Sorry the late answer, Navionics and plan2Nav are permanently stored on your smartphone and/or tablet. plan2Nav charts here in the Philippines are older, but shows depths, where Navionics only shows grey, e.g. Coron harbour my favourite anchoring place is on top of an island. That is the reason I carry both. Only download what you really need, the updates take hours later! openCPN w free UScharts is great.
When I anchored at Coron there was a ship firmly on the reef that's charted poorly,and you can't see. Places like the Philippines and Papua etc I download satellite imagery via SAS planet, can have it running right next to open cpn. Wouldn't leave home without it. I downloaded approx 50gb for that part of the world and will also do it for the next trip. No paper chart comes close to it, it just dosent lie.

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Old 10-01-2017, 23:13   #42
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Re: Replacing Charts

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When we were prepping to cross the Pacific I bought something over 120 charts (I believed all the Internet discussion about not having paper charts being unseaworthy and likely to result in my death when I hit something that was not shown on Navionics. Turns out that I looked at precisely one of them because the electronic chart showed no detail for Pitcairn Island. I whipped out my Pitcairn chart and found a similar amount of detail - perhaps not a surprise since the electronic chart data of course comes from government sources. The paper chart had one bonus piece of information - at the bottom of the Pitcairn section of the chart was a statement indicating how inaccurate the position of the island was on the chart - something like one km as I remember.

When we crossed the Indian Ocean including southern Indonesia and for the Atlantic from Cape Town back to Canada we only had electronics (and cruising guides in the areas where they existed) and had no problems. Can't think of any of the circumnavigators we met who were using paper charts - cost is a major consideration in this. Talked to officers from a 300,000 tonne tanker and a cruise ship - neither vessel had a single paper chart onboard. The world has changed - for the better I think.
I think this is true. Most of us start of with a heap of charts and eventually end up with a handful.
Anyway probably another discussion.

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Old 10-01-2017, 23:38   #43
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Re: Replacing Charts

When we cruised, we used Navionics Gold and Platinum Charts on our E120 Chart Plotter. As a back up we carried an IPAD with Navionics on it and usually a small scale paper chart for we ever we were cruising. Only used the paper charts to memorialize our trip.

As far as Paper Charts... They are valid if they contain chart corrections from the date of Last Chart Correction as printed on the chart... https://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/...ed_through.htm

Now just for reference, can someone point out the exact SOLAS Regulation requiring recreational vessels under 65 feet to carry Government Issued Charts on International voyages?

Obviously there is no requirement within US Waters, since when inspected by the USCG they do not require paper charts or plotters. Also The Code of Federal Regulations exempts boats in US waters and not used for commerce from carriage of charts of electronic postioning satellite devices...
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Old 11-01-2017, 06:33   #44
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Re: Replacing Charts

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[COLOR=Red]

ENC means an electronic navigational chart database that
(b) is issued for use with an ECDIS on the authority of the Canadian Hydrographic Service or a hydrographic office authorized by the government of a country other than Canada.


Navionics and its competitors do not have survey vessels out collecting data. They purchase it (in the case of the US, it is free to use) from the Canadian Hydrographic Service. I think this would qualify as authorization.

At some point before soon we are going to be helping with commissioning of a new Tayana and then delivering it from Taiwan to Hong Kong. I did a quick check of the Navionics chart we have for the area and found it quite interesting that the Chinese (PRC) hydrography was there in the normal way but the Hong Kong data was not. There was only a rough outline of the land features with a few marine features. Seemed odd, not sure what is happening here but apparently HK authorities did not make their data available. No idea what nav system is on the Tayana - I assume a very good one, but if the HK stuff is missing it will be back to paper for the last few miles of the trip.
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Old 11-01-2017, 16:10   #45
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Re: Replacing Charts

The offical word from Navionics re Hong Kong:

"By order of the Hong Kong Government SAR we have removed all data originating from them. Navionics has applied for a license but regrettably their response is they do not permit any third party to sell their cartographic data. We will continue to pursue a suitable remedy. For any further details please directly contact Mr. Michael CM CHAU, Deputy Hydrographer, Marine Department, Hong Kong Government SAR michaelchau@mardep.gov.hk."
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