Replacing Charts

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Could you please point out where this regulation is gazetted?

Perhaps true for commercial vessels, or those under survey rules, but in the various venues in which I have cruised, I've not noted this rule.

I doubt if one in one hundred cruisers fulfill this "requirement".

Jim

Yes Jim...it's the law. The chart police come around and check.

I have OpenCPN now with AIS overlay I will be trying for the first time on the water next week. I still have my charts. The most helpful for me are the cruising guides. Very simple, good information. They have never let me down.

[Mike Pusateri]

Have two forms of electronic charting but still like the overview paper charts provide.... Also like to follow my position the old way. Cheers

[blubaju]

Sorry the late answer, Navionics and plan2Nav are permanently stored on your smartphone and/or tablet. plan2Nav charts here in the Philippines are older, but shows depths, where Navionics only shows grey, e.g. Coron harbour my favourite anchoring place is on top of an island. That is the reason I carry both. Only download what you really need, the updates take hours later! openCPN w free UScharts is great.

[blubaju]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

..., but as you say, only Canadian ships and masters are affected. And, does the term "ship" apply to non-commercial vessels? EG, if the vessel is not documented, must it have the charts on board? Not clear from the parts that you posted.
...

Jim

Sorry, everything in your statement is correct, but you overlooked, the request for updated charts is an IMO (International Maritime Organization) regulation and transferred into local law in all member states. And the law is for ALL vessels, big or small, commercial or private, even military and police in peace.

And if you think logic, there is no way out, have an accident anywhere and tell the judge: Not my fault, this oil rig/pier, etc, I hit was not on my 10 year old never updated chart.

But then:
This man made (bankrupt mining) island and peninsula is 20+ years old. Google Earth is the best chart! 121.973355°E, 13.560668°N, I did not find it in any of my charts, no lights or signals either! Do not try to pass between Island and peninsula, to shallow unless you are on a local small banca.

Fair winds and following seas!

[StuM]

Originally Posted by blubaju

But then:
This man made (bankrupt mining) island and peninsula is 20+ years old. Google Earth is the best chart! 121.973355°E, 13.560668°N, I did not find it in any of my charts, no lights or signals either! Do not try to pass between Island and peninsula, to shallow unless you are on a local small banca.

Yep, no sign of either the island or the peninsula on the latest Navionics online charts

https://webapp.navionics.com/#boating@10&key=ybpqAcrmgV

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Mike P.

[blubaju]

Originally Posted by StuM

Yep, no sign of either the island or the peninsula on the latest Navionics online charts

https://webapp.navionics.com/#boating@10&key=ybpqAcrmgV

Zoom in and you will see a line of dots. I tried somehow to warn others via "community edits". If someone knows how to draw a peninsula, it would be of great help. This one is quite dangerous, the N-Coast of Marinduque forms a large bay, sailing happily a straight line from end to end for sure you will hit at night or without good lookout. Chart shows 33m depth!

[StuM]

Originally Posted by blubaju

Zoom in and you will see a line of dots. I tried somehow to warn others via "community edits". If someone knows how to draw a peninsula, it would be of great help. This one is quite dangerous, the N-Coast of Marinduque forms a large bay, sailing happily a straight line from end to end for sure you will hit at night or without good lookout. Chart shows 33m depth!

Well done!!


I don't think you can draw larger features with community edits, you are limited to spots.

Pity they don't show at lower zoom levels.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Eggbah

I don't own a boat yet, but I am curious to know when charts should be replaced. I have a stack of about 50 or so that I have collected over the years of places that I'd like to go to one day.

Are paper charts even used today or is everything digital now?

As others have said, you should have up-to-date charts of some kind on board.

A great advantage of electronic charts is that they are far easier (if not cheaper) to keep updated.

Many sailors, however, including me, find paper charts almost indispensable for passage planning. That's because it is very difficult with electronic charts, at least, with the vector charts used in most electronic charting systems, to get a wide overview of an area which at the same time presents all the hazards along potential routes.

I cruise through 10 to 12 countries every year which creates a really big challenge with regards to charts.

What I do is to regard the electronic vector charts in my main nav system (B&G Zeuses at helm and nav table) to be the authoritative ones, and I keep these scrupulously updated.

I have a large collection of outdated paper charts, some of them updated by hand, but most of them not, for passage planning and general study and overview.

I also use different charts in OpenCPN on the ship's computer, mostly for passage planning. Some of these charts are raster, not vector charts, and if you display these on a large, high resolution monitor (we have a 23", 4K monitor at the nav table), then what you can see comes close to what you get with paper.

A big advantage of passage planning with OpenCPN is that you can create routes with a few mouse clicks, then transfer to the main nav system by USB drive. This saves an enormous amount of time compared to doing it with the paper charts. When you are planning a 50 to 200 mile passage almost every day for a month, sometimes through very complex water requiring dozens of waypoints, this time saving really adds up.

But we still use the paper charts a lot. There is still really nothing like sitting at the nav table with the paper chart spread out on it, with dividers and plotter in hand.


N.B. If you do passage planning with out of date charts (either paper or electronic), be sure to check the route carefully on the main nav system against the up to date ones!!

[jurdanfrancis]

Good day sir. Can you help me about my open cpn. My problem is I have GPS info G-str IV I started ang working properly but in my opencpn won't work no GPS appear. Before its working after an hour later it won't work anymore til now. I checked already comport but still not appear gps in my open cpn. Can you help me to fix this problem?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by blubaju

Sorry, everything in your statement is correct, but you overlooked, the request for updated charts is an IMO (International Maritime Organization) regulation and transferred into local law in all member states. And the law is for ALL vessels, big or small, commercial or private, even military and police in peace.

And if you think logic, there is no way out, have an accident anywhere and tell the judge: Not my fault, this oil rig/pier, etc, I hit was not on my 10 year old never updated chart.

But then:
This man made (bankrupt mining) island and peninsula is 20+ years old. Google Earth is the best chart! 121.973355°E, 13.560668°N, I did not find it in any of my charts, no lights or signals either! Do not try to pass between Island and peninsula, to shallow unless you are on a local small banca.

Fair winds and following seas!

Well, I just checked the local (Australian) rules, and they require, if in open waters only, a "map or chart of area of operation, either paper or electronic". No requirement for updating, scale, or even that it be a marine chart. And this from a notorious nanny state!

I agree that having the latest chart is a good thing. I do not believe that very many long distance cruisers are too worried when this requirement is not met. I have never heard of any sort of prosecution of a cruiser for failing to have such charts on board other than some non-specific events in Canada reported on the internet, that fount of truth and knowledge, but perhaps such prosecutions have occurred. Finally, I doubt if there is much chance of being before a judge because one has used an outdated chart. Possible? Perhaps, but I've better things to worry about.

I've been known to jaywalk, too!

Jim

PS I just ran across this list of USCG requirements for recreational vessels: http://www.southernyachtclub.org/files/USCGMinReq.pdf

You will not that there is NO requirement for charts of any kind, let alone the latest updated ones. I think that the USA is an IMO member state.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

. . . . I agree that having the latest chart is a good thing. I do not believe that very many long distance cruisers are too worried when this requirement is not met. I have never heard of any sort of prosecution of a cruiser for failing to have such charts on board other than some non-specific events in Canada reported on the internet, that fount of truth and knowledge, but perhaps such prosecutions have occurred. Finally, I doubt if there is much chance of being before a judge because one has used an outdated chart. Possible? Perhaps, but I've better things to worry about.
. . . .

Each to his own set of priorities, I guess, but I personally would never be comfortable sailing somewhere without at least one form of up-to-date cartography on board. It seems just -- unseamanlike; even irresponsible. You would never run a ship like that; so why would it be any different in our yachts?

I wouldn't worry about prosecution per se, but what if you have an accident? Would be a great excuse for your insurance not to pay. In fact I can just about guarantee that if you hit an oil rig at night, or a pier, or anything, which was on the latest charts, but not on yours, your insurance will NOT pay. Your policy makes it a condition that you are operating your vessel according to elementary standards of seamanship.


Not to say I haven't done it. Did a lot of sailing in Florida in previous decades with out of date charts. And the keel of my previous boat has the scars to prove it . Transitted Danish waters a couple of times with no charts at all (!) -- yes! Because Denmark is excluded from the "Entire Baltic" Navionics chart set (gives new meaning to the word "entire"). I even did a night entry (!) into an unfamiliar Danish port once, without any chart except the rough schematic from the pilot book. But I hated every second of it -- it was simply unseamanlike. Now I have a full set of paper for Denmark (kindly gifted by a friend from on here), plus a separate chart set for the main nav system.


I actually don't think there is much excuse any more, for not having up to date cartography, since electronic chart sets cover such wide areas now, and can be so easily updated online.

[Jim Cate]

I wouldn't worry about prosecution per se, but what if you have an accident? Would be a great excuse for your insurance not to pay. In fact I can just about guarantee that if you hit an oil rig at night, or a pier, or anything, which was on the latest charts, but not on yours, your insurance will NOT pay. Your policy makes it a condition that you are operating your vessel according to elementary standards of seamanship.

Umm, DH,do you operate your boat in such a way that you are likely to hit a newly constructed oil rig or pier because it isn't on a chart?

What about that radar that you claim to run ceaselessly? Wouldn't that show the hazard? Do you depend on charts to keep you from such? I don't...

Your cruising, as far as we've heard, is in pretty civilized areas, where conscientious governments stay abreast of such things and issue updated charts and NTMs on a regular basis. Much of the world does not, and old charts show much the same as new ones. You suggest that if a commercial ship wouldn't operate that way, then we shouldn't. Do you think that somehow ships can access charts that don't exist, nice new ones that show every new wrinkle, when there has been no new survey for decades? I do believe that good ship skippers will have updated information for their destinations, but then they know well in advance just where they are going. We often do not know just where we are going, and that makes chart selection a wider range of possibilities, and increases the cost of one's portfolio. That may not be a factor for you, but it is for many cruisers

In a perfect world, I would have these great new charts. In reality, I have not found that older charts have caused me to hit very many objects recently installed. Radar,eyeballs, binoculars and other aids to pilotage have prevailed over evil... at least so far. Being that I do not have comprehensive insurance, I'm not worried about claim denial. I can't see that there is a great probability of a third party claim being denied due to lack of latest chart updates, but perhaps I don't understand the fine print in my policy.

Anyhow, my observation that many cruisers manage successfully without the latest charts still stands. I make no claim that this is best practice... only that it is common practice, and with few known evil consequences. And that it is not a specific legal requirement for recreational vessels of American registry.

Jim

[chuckr]

We just sailed the entire Black Sea using only Navonics on a RayMarine chartplotter and as a backup and planning tool OpenCPN with CM93 charts.
We did pick up one paper chart and that was for the Bosphorus Straits as it was recommended by a retired Turkish Air Force general who is a sailor and talked to us about going up the Bosphorus. We used the paper chart to find the counter currents and use them to our advantage.
The only other paper chart we have on board is an Atlantic chart that we used on our Atlantic crossing so we could chart our position each day. Beyond that we have a ton of cruising guides and some when new are very old.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Umm, DH,do you operate your boat in such a way that you are likely to hit a newly constructed oil rig or pier because it isn't on a chart?

What about that radar that you claim to run ceaselessly? Wouldn't that show the hazard? Do you depend on charts to keep you from such? I don't...

Your cruising, as far as we've heard, is in pretty civilized areas, where conscientious governments stay abreast of such things and issue updated charts and NTMs on a regular basis. Much of the world does not, and old charts show much the same as new ones. You suggest that if a commercial ship wouldn't operate that way, then we shouldn't. Do you think that somehow ships can access charts that don't exist, nice new ones that show every new wrinkle, when there has been no new survey for decades? I do believe that good ship skippers will have updated information for their destinations, but then they know well in advance just where they are going. We often do not know just where we are going, and that makes chart selection a wider range of possibilities, and increases the cost of one's portfolio. That may not be a factor for you, but it is for many cruisers

In a perfect world, I would have these great new charts. In reality, I have not found that older charts have caused me to hit very many objects recently installed. Radar,eyeballs, binoculars and other aids to pilotage have prevailed over evil... at least so far. Being that I do not have comprehensive insurance, I'm not worried about claim denial. I can't see that there is a great probability of a third party claim being denied due to lack of latest chart updates, but perhaps I don't understand the fine print in my policy.

Anyhow, my observation that many cruisers manage successfully without the latest charts still stands. I make no claim that this is best practice... only that it is common practice, and with few known evil consequences. And that it is not a specific legal requirement for recreational vessels of American registry.

Jim

I'm not arguing with you -- of course you are right, that many cruisers get along without accidents, and without up to date charts. Of course charts are not the only source of information, and in some areas the charts, new are old, are crap anyway. All this is true.

I am just expressing a personal opinion that seamanlike management of the vessel requires you to have the freshest cartographic information available. That it would be kind of inexcusable, to have an accident which could have been prevented only if you had bothered to update your charts. I follow the practice used on ships. I am guessing that most insurance companies would agree with me.

Sure, you might spot that new wind farm on radar, as I did in the North Sea a couple of years ago, since the new wind farm was not in my brand new Navionics chart. But do you really want to set yourself up to be surprised by this sort of thing, if the information exists in a chart update, which you haven't bothered to get? What about the changed buoyage? The newly spotted rock? The light which has been shut down or moved? The channel or pass moved by a storm? The new pier sticking out into what used to be a clear channel? The new shoal in what used to be safe water? Can you really not care about having this information, if it is available?


Incidentally, this is a bit of drift from the discussion, but the USCG document explaining what is expected of uninspected passenger vessels, makes the excellent point, that buying a mess of brand new charts does NOT solve the problem -- that you must keep up with the Notices to Mariners, because the charts are already long out of date by the time they're sold. The CG notes that few recreational sailors actually have a clue about this.


Another issue influencing how you feel about this is how much do you sail, and how far. Most cruisers stay in a fairly narrowly defined area, which they know pretty well. They don't spend a lot of time studying charts. Naturally they won't care nearly as much. I sail back and forth between the UK South Coast and Eastern Finland every year, passing through the waters of about 10 countries on the way. It's a lot of water, a lot of rocks, a lot of buoys, channels, lights, traffic, ports, sea lanes, etc., etc., etc., all of which demands an approach and work process which is less like the typical casual cruiser's, and more like how a regular ship's navigator would work. That's the standard I try, sometimes weakly, to fulfill. YMMV.