Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 31-07-2014, 15:20   #16
Registered User
 
rognvald's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Summer: In the land of Wooly Mammoths
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,252
Images: 2
Re: Putting Faith in Electronics

"Furthermore, I firmly believe that too much reliance on electronics rots your brain. Using all your own senses for piloting and navigation with a chart for reference hones your innate sense of direction. If you just blindly go where your chartplotter/GPS tells you, all that is lost.

Never underestimate the perversity of inanimate objects." Uke

The above quote is sage wisdom from a professional in the field. . . One does not have to be a "Luddite" as some have referred to us or those with a "fear of growing old," as has been also expressed, but rather a sub-specie of Man(to the dullards among us I say this tongue in cheek) that relishes learned skills and abilities that challenge one's métier and speaks to a more simplistic and I believe more accurate approach-- especially in regards to coastal navigation. To discredit the advantages of electronics aboard a vessel would be patently absurd but to put one's total faith in these instruments is equally foolish. There are some among us that enjoy all things electronic and others, like myself, that use them as a tool but still prefer traditional navigation. I beleive this is rooted in personality, not advanced age or intellectual stodginess since many of my intelligent contemporaries are "electro-maniacs" and rely exclusively on them. It is also why as a deer hunter, I preferred to kill with a bow rather than a rifle or gun; as a fisherman--preferring the art of the flyrod in pristine streams rather than stout fighting sticks with hi-tech multi-geared reels; as a musician--to play the music of Bach, Villa Lobos, and Scarlatti on a handmade classical guitar by a respected luthier rather than the three chord magic played on an electric guitar made on an assembly line or as a voracious reader of quality literature, science and history to viscerally flip through the paper pages of a book rather than the multivarious convenience of a Kindle. Putting faith in electronics? It depends on your personality. Good luck, good sailing, and for some of you-- may your days be filled with electromagnetic stimulation. Sincerely, Captain Rognvald--a missionary to the banal.
__________________

__________________
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra
rognvald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2014, 15:23   #17
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: putting faith in electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ukeluthier View Post
So here is this brilliant man -- still sharp as a tack, and with 50+ years of boating experience under his belt -- whose location-modeling brain cells have rotted away through disuse.

THAT is my point.
You are assigning causality without any evidence of it. Using a single example that supports your behavior.

I will accept that your brain rots from using electronics, but you must accept that the brains of others do not.

Once you have accepted that, the argument can be made either way - which makes it clear that the electronics are not the issue.

As for taking bearings and fixes with a compass - good luck with that offshore or in the fog or even in a really humid overcast day with the shore several miles away.

When near shore with known landmarks, we never need to take fixes to know where we are - we just look. Hey look, we are passing Cuttyhunk now - I wonder where we are?

Again, this whole electronics thing is a red herring and a slippery slope. The real old timers will be poo-pooing GPS or any electronics at all, while the neo-old timers will be using GPS fixes, poo-pooing chart plotters and arguing that daily noon sites are no longer needed. The old-timer wanna be's will be using chart plotters, poo-pooing wireless connections and portable devices and arguing against standalone GPS's. You can carry this back to people no longer with us who poo-poo'd compasses.

After all, that compass will be taken out with all the electronics during the next lightning strike.

Mark

P.S. do you really make or work on ukes? We recently got one and it is a hoot!
__________________

__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2014, 15:26   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Putting Faith in Electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
The way that people who work with electronics for a living don't trust them tells me a lot.
.
You are cherry-picking to support your already determined beliefs. There are MANY electronics professionals on this board who do trust electronics. More so than those who do not.

This has nothing to do with knowing basic DR navigational skills.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2014, 16:03   #19
Registered User
 
travellerw's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Martinique
Boat: Fortuna Island Spirit 40
Posts: 1,723
Re: Putting Faith in Electronics

I will chime in...

I'm an electronics professional and while I wouldn't trust a single electronic device, I will trust an electronics system with redundancy. NASA does it all the time. Backups (and backups of backups) is key.

Heck, if you drive a car, you are trusting your life to many electronic components (antilock brakes, traction systems, drive by wire, ect).

Frankly I would put more trust in having multiple easy to operate electronics backups than paper charts and a sextant. The sextant and paper charts are going to be very error prone. Even if you "know" how to use them, your likely to be very rusty.
__________________
travellerw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2014, 16:06   #20
Registered User
 
rognvald's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Summer: In the land of Wooly Mammoths
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,252
Images: 2
Re: Putting Faith in Electronics

"You are assigning causality without any evidence of it. Using a single example that supports your behavior.

I will accept that your brain rots from using electronics, but you must accept that the brains of others do not.

Once you have accepted that, the argument can be made either way - which makes it clear that the electronics are not the issue." Colemj

Mark,
I don't think Uke was arguing the case for Aristotelianism Casualty
in the above example but rather stating that when one relies on the computer's "brain" rather than one's own for determining time and place on a nautical chart, the process of mental/physical casuality--how we get from A to B based upon time, speed, current, drift, etc. (prefigured by a cerebrum versus a printed board) has been lost . . . ergo--brain rotting. I think I'd agree. Now, if you want to discuss Aristotle, this can only be accomplished outside this Forum or both you and I will surely be not only castigated, but thrown into a cyberspace dungeon reserved for those perceived as the most egregious and banal . . . and since I have become a missionary of the banal, I must tread lightly on our sensitive viewers. The beat goes on . . . Captain Rognvald in remission
__________________
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra
rognvald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2014, 16:24   #21
Registered User
 
scuba0_1's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: naples
Boat: 2005 Catalina 350
Posts: 670
Re: Putting Faith in Electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
The way that people who work with electronics for a living don't trust them tells me a lot.

It reminds me of when I was in my twenties, and once I started to really understand heavy equipment, I stopped going on carnival rides.
So did you give up your car for a horse and buggy

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
scuba0_1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2014, 16:32   #22
Registered User
 
scuba0_1's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: naples
Boat: 2005 Catalina 350
Posts: 670
Re: Putting Faith in Electronics

I know how to find a point on a chart close. I know how to use markers and lights used more so at night but in all the years I've sailed 16 now 41 I've never not used our ever had a navigational electronic device fail. But the chats are there. They are cool to look at and the girls loved it when I pulled them out.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
scuba0_1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2014, 16:43   #23
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,455
Re: Putting Faith in Electronics

Quote:
So here is this brilliant man -- still sharp as a tack, and with 50+ years of boating experience under his belt -- whose location-modeling brain cells have rotted away through disuse.

THAT is my point.

So tell me, how do you know that he ever had the location-modeling brain cells to which you refer? To say that they have rotted away through disuse is unsupported IMO.

And for Newt and all the others who rely upon one, two or three point bearings to establish their anchored position: I doubt if such plotting is accurate enough to really detect anchor dragging in its early stages... a matter of a few feet or tens of feet. The bearing changes are small, and HBC are not all that stable from a boat that is moving about at anchor in strong wind conditions. I know that I couldn't rely upon such data. Your GPS, however, can and will detect such movement, especially in the areas with enhanced capabilities (which we don't enjoy in many places). And what do you use for references in anchorages where there are no other lights to use during the dark hours? And how can you be sure that those lights, w hen visible, won't themselves move... like nav buoys which move around on their chains through distances similar to your boat beginning to drag?

IMO, the advent of reliable (and I find them in fact to be pretty reliable these days) anchor alarms is has reduced the stress of cruising a great deal. I do still use compass bearings to establish an escape route if it is a simple one, but if complex, I try to set it up as a route on OCPN before I retire. I do check visuals when I awake naturally (yeah, I'm that old that it happens several times a night!), but I rely upon the alarm to wake me if and when the boat moves significantly.

FAith in electronics?? Well, yes, electronic devices can and do fail with little warning. But the chances of that occurring just when needed during a stormy night... well, it could happen, but I don't worry about that so much. And I spend a LOT of nights at anchor!

Cheers,

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2014, 16:49   #24
cruiser

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,130
Re: Putting Faith in Electronics

So if I agree with you, I agree with you, and if I don't, I'm cherry picking.

We are amused.
__________________
Jammer Six is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2014, 16:57   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
Boat: Menger 19' Catboat
Posts: 248
Re: putting faith in electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
You are assigning causality without any evidence of it. Using a single example that supports your behavior.

I will accept that your brain rots from using electronics, but you must accept that the brains of others do not.
I used that single example because I felt it best illustrated my point... the one that you still seem not to get. I'm not maintaining that simply using electronics rots your brain -- just that reliance on electronics to the exclusion of your God-given (substitute another deity or evolution if you prefer) senses and reasoning powers leads to their decline. Use it or lose it. Take the escalator instead of the stairs, and you will soon need to use the escalator and will be helpless when it breaks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
As for taking bearings and fixes with a compass - good luck with that offshore or in the fog or even in a really humid overcast day with the shore several miles away.

When near shore with known landmarks, we never need to take fixes to know where we are - we just look. Hey look, we are passing Cuttyhunk now - I wonder where we are?
Sure, I used in-shore navigation as the example because that's the kind of cruising I'm currently doing... but celestial and dead reckoning are the common-sense backups offshore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
P.S. do you really make or work on ukes? We recently got one and it is a hoot!
Yes, I've been building custom, high-end 'ukuleles professionally for about 15 years now. More fun than a barrel of monkeys and easily stowable.

"Music self-played is happiness self-made."
__________________
Ukeluthier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2014, 16:59   #26
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Neptune's Gear's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Gulf Harbour, New Zealand
Boat: Farr Phase 4, 12.8m
Posts: 992
Re: Putting Faith in Electronics

As usual Jim, I agree.

Electronics does not take away from a Navigators situational awareness. It is THE key element in safe navigation. IMO good electronics, with redundancy, ADD to your situational awareness, not detract from it. Someone without this awareness is a danger to themselves and others, with or without electronics.
It is exactly the same as a person walking through a city, alone and late at night. Be aware of what is around you at all times, and you can mostly avoid trouble. If you're not aware, trouble can find you, even if you're standing still!

I have great faith in my electronics. The plotter is verified by radar, added to by AIS and Fwd scanning sonar, and by the person on watch. It is surprising how often the electronics detect something before the on watch person, myself included! There are several spare PC's aboard etc... Oh yeah, and paper charts, a sextant and tables. Never needed them yet!
__________________
Matt Paulin
Neptunes Gear Ltd
www.neptunes-gear.com
Neptune's Gear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2014, 17:04   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
Boat: Menger 19' Catboat
Posts: 248
Re: Putting Faith in Electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
So tell me, how do you know that he ever had the location-modeling brain cells to which you refer? To say that they have rotted away through disuse is unsupported IMO.
Well, he was motor-cruising very actively for at least 20 years before GPS and chartplotters came along, so he must have been using his noggin to some extent to stay off the rocks.
__________________
Ukeluthier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2014, 17:05   #28
Registered User
 
scuba0_1's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: naples
Boat: 2005 Catalina 350
Posts: 670
Re: Putting Faith in Electronics

This would make a great anonymous pole. Do you know how to navigate using anything other than electronics

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
scuba0_1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2014, 17:50   #29
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 17,051
Re: Putting Faith in Electronics

If you don't trust your life in electronics, for God's sake never fly, shooting an approach without electronics would be a little tough
__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2014, 17:52   #30
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 17,051
Putting Faith in Electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by scuba0_1 View Post
This would make a great anonymous pole. Do you know how to navigate using anything other than electronics

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Like most poles here, it might start off honest, but soon people start voting what they know is the popu;ar answer or don't vote at all
__________________

__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
electronics

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Boat Age and faith? Zach Monohull Sailboats 19 15-10-2006 18:11



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:15.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.