Paper Charts or Just Electronic

[jkindredpdx]

I just returned from a trip... I have a good chart plotter, but also used paper charts while sailing. Admittedly they were years old so not completely reliable, but I could easily read and write on them and it was a heck of a lot easier to zoom in and out

[first.contact]

My insurance company (Australia) in a recent subscriber newsletter hinted that a boat may not be insured if they rely solely on electronic navigation charts and *DO NOT* have the corresponding paper charts on board.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

4) crude lead line made of a dive weight and small flexible line marked every foot for 12 feet and then in fathoms up to 10 fathoms (total line length ~75 feet).

Marked in fathoms and feet! That sounds like not just going back to last century but to the one before

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Adelie

A. Learn to spell
B. I do not seriously worry about it but still take precautions. Actually the precautions are more related to not trusting electronics to being invulnerable than to worries about the sat nav constellations failing.
C. Chances of GPS not working on the boat whatever the cause are on the same order of magnitude or higher than the boat sinking.
D. If you have been offshore on your boat you probably have or had a liferaft but almost certainly you did not carry and AED so don't talk to me about rational responses to risk.

I said I was over this discussion but I couldn’t resist.

A) Learn to spell yourself (at least mine was an auto correct, yours is just a spelling error)
B) How did you miss the dozens of posts (including mine) about multiple redundancy - we are all in agreement about that, look around you.
C) See B above
D) WTF is an AED and why do I need one? Sailed several intercontinental voyages and island passages, never knew what an AED was and survived OK. When I find out what an AED is I’ll continue living without one.

OK now I’m over this discussion.

Actually I’m not. I’ve just discovered that an AED is defibrillator. And you think because I don’t have one on board I have an irrational response to risk? What?!?!? I have been on and know owners of dozens of cruising boats. If I even hinted that any one of them should have one of those on board, I’d be buying the next round. Are you seriously saying you carry a defibrillator on your boat? Wow, I’m no longer surprised that you’re worried about GPS systems disappearing.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

I said I was over this discussion but I couldn’t resist.

A) Learn to spell yourself (at least mine was an auto correct, yours is just a spelling error)
B) How did you miss the dozens of posts (including mine) about multiple redundancy - we are all in agreement about that, look around you.
C) See B above
D) WTF is an AED and why do I need one? Sailed several intercontinental voyages and island passages, never knew what an AED was and survived OK. When I find out what an AED is I’ll continue living without one.

OK now I’m over this discussion.

Actually I’m not. I’ve just discovered that an AED is defibrillator. And you think because I don’t have one on board I have an irrational response to risk? What?!?!? I have been on and know owners of dozens of cruising boats. If I even hinted that any one of them should have one of those on board, I’d be buying the next round. Are you seriously saying you carry a defibrillator on your boat? Wow, I’m no longer surprised that you’re worried about GPS systems disappearing.

A. It wasn't an auto correct mistake you made, you mispelled my UserName, it's Adelie, not Adeline.

D. A heart attack is more likely than the boat sinking, yet you probably carry a liferaft or would get one if you were going offshore. So you probably are more prepared to deal with the less likely event than the more likely event. hence you would not respond rationally to the risks.

No, I don't carry an AED, nor will I carry a liferaft (I am working to make the boat unsinkable.) I do however carry paper charts, a chart book for local waters, when I go to Cabo I intend to carry 5 or 6 charts and maybe a cruising guide. Most of the navigation will be done on a chart plotter.

And yes I also have a compass, a depthsounder and a lead line.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by first.contact

My insurance company (Australia) in a recent subscriber newsletter hinted that a boat may not be insured if they rely solely on electronic navigation charts and *DO NOT* have the corresponding paper charts on board.

I suspect they said something to the effect of "up to date paper charts along with all applicable NTM corrections for the area". Each country has different carriage requirements and some insurance companies will use language like this to avoid paying claims. Obviously, each of us has to follow the laws under which we operate and within the bounds of our insurance policies.

[martinz]

Originally Posted by StuM

This is one app on my cheapo Android phone which also has Navionics on it. Can do the same with a tablet.

The screen dump of this app looks a little like a switch panel on a boat where the designer of the panel has allowed for a few extra switches with their associated pilot lights, but you can't tell by looking at it which are "live". The bottom option doesn't look to be.
I would be more interested in seeing a screen dump of the screen in the background to see which of the systems the cheapo Android can actually see. Its currently showing "0 in Use"

[requiem]

Originally Posted by martinz

I would be more interested in seeing a screen dump of the screen in the background to see which of the systems the cheapo Android can actually see. Its currently showing "0 in Use"

If you want to know which satellites your phone is working with, the GPStest app described here is probably a good one to start with:
https://galileognss.eu/why-galileo-i...united-states/

[StuM]

Originally Posted by martinz

The screen dump of this app looks a little like a switch panel on a boat where the designer of the panel has allowed for a few extra switches with their associated pilot lights, but you can't tell by looking at it which are "live". The bottom option doesn't look to be.
I would be more interested in seeing a screen dump of the screen in the background to see which of the systems the cheapo Android can actually see. Its currently showing "0 in Use"

It's GPS Test Plus:


https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...testplus&hl=en


It's currently showing 16 in view, 10 in use. 14 x GPS and 2 x QZSS

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Adelie

A. It wasn't an auto correct mistake you made, you mispelled my UserName, it's Adelie, not Adeline.

D. A heart attack is more likely than the boat sinking, yet you probably carry a liferaft or would get one if you were going offshore. So you probably are more prepared to deal with the less likely event than the more likely event. hence you would not respond rationally to the risks.

No, I don't carry an AED, nor will I carry a liferaft (I am working to make the boat unsinkable.) I do however carry paper charts, a chart book for local waters, when I go to Cabo I intend to carry 5 or 6 charts and maybe a cruising guide. Most of the navigation will be done on a chart plotter.

And yes I also have a compass, a depthsounder and a lead line.

I think the bottom line from this long long discussion is to carry navigational aids that you are comfortable using.

Senior navigators have gone thru the transition from DR-Celestial/LORAN/TRANST to GPS so have this built in training redundancy with paper charts and a better comfort level with using independent off-grid navigation.

New Navigators have a choice:

1 Focus on modern aids with equipment redundancy and updated Data/Programs

2.Same as #1 but with "get home" basic old school navigational methods that probably will hardly ever be used and thus forgotten ... A paper chart is needed if boat is damaged and without power.

#3 A new navigator who treats navigation like meteorology as a challenge and a hobbie to improve skills for personal satisfaction.

To be honest, I would happily trade my celestial training and experience for better computer programing skills to follow all the OpenCPN gibberish! [emoji4]

That stuff gives me a headache!

[barnakiel]

Our devices that are Galileo capable cannot use Galileo. We have Android toys here.



I cannot tell if this is App limitation or hardware issue. But last time I tried (in the spring) nothing happened when we elected Galileo as the constellation. So, to me, at this point, Galileo is all EU talk but no position fix.


Other systems:


gps - up to 30 sats visible at once, position within 6 meters,
glonass - up to 8 visible, position within 3 meters,
beidou - 2 max 3 visible, position unreliable (accurate but very on and off),


Interestingly, mixed glonass / gps mode has bigger COC.


Measurement place - Spain / Africa (Canary Is.).


IF you have a good Galileo Android App - PLS post the name, I will download and test here.


(YES - we too have a lead line in our boat)



b.

[Exile]

Like many if not most who have posted, I always have and probably always will have paper charts onboard, for both backup and a "big picture" view. Even if it's only a small-scale chart for passage planning. I also regularly plot the boat's position on paper when on passage, and try and keep up on some level of dead reckoning skills, just in case . . . . I have a sextant onboard and would even love to learn how to use it one of these days.

But the truth is, and probably like most these days, I'm very much dependent on my electronics. I have a fair bit of redundancy and battery backup, but my single biggest concern is a lightening strike. I know this is rare, especially offshore, but it's frankly the only variable I routinely worry about (not so much with satellites going out).

So to this end, I was much intrigued when transmitterdan posted awhile back his opinion re: the robustness of handheld devices when it comes to lightening strikes. Anecdotal I know, but based on a lot of technical experience in the field so perhaps worth taking some comfort in. On the other hand, we often read threads about lightening strikes zapping "all the onboard electronics," but I'm not sure those reports encompass handhelds or not (don't recall). If not, then are chartplotters and other fixed marine electronics typically installed in our boats somehow more susceptible than handhelds? If so, is it because they are generally plugged into power, or rather something inherent in their design?

As for Farraday cages, I'm certainly no expert but my readings generally confirm TD's comment that ovens make poor ones, as do microwaves (contrary to many peoples' perceptions). As for ammo boxes, I would think the rubber seal in the lid would defeat any protection (no metal-to-metal contact), but maybe the metal, overlapping flaps in the lid are enough??

[Adelie]

Exile, I could teach you how to use the sextant. Where are you in the real world?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Exile, I could teach you how to use the sextant. Where are you in the real world?

Ha! A very generous offer, and I bet you could teach me how to use it. I would love to learn such "old" skills which I happen to believe are still highly relevant & useful alongside our "new" electronic navigating. I had a younger brother, long passed now, who had a beautiful ($$$) sextant in a wooden box which he left to me. I have purposely not brought it onboard until/unless I learn how to use it. Instead, I bought a cheap plastic "learner" sextant (Davis Instr. as I recall) as an incentive. But meanwhile . . . it hasn't happened yet. I figured it might on a long offshore passage, assuming not too much breaks along the way that is.

My boat is e. coast (US) based, presently in the Norfolk, VA area. But I do make it out to S. Cal. on occasion if that's where you are.

[Pizzazz]

Originally Posted by Exile

I have a fair bit of redundancy and battery backup, but my single biggest concern is a lightening strike. I know this is rare, especially offshore, but it's frankly the only variable I routinely worry about (not so much with satellites going out).
[...]
As for Farraday cages, I'm certainly no expert but my readings generally confirm TD's comment that ovens make poor ones, as do microwaves (contrary to many peoples' perceptions). As for ammo boxes, I would think the rubber seal in the lid would defeat any protection (no metal-to-metal contact), but maybe the metal, overlapping flaps in the lid are enough??

My suggestion would be a couple of Android phones, loaded with good software, fully charged, a couple of spare batteries, all wrapped in aluminum folio, tucked somewhere on the boat. May be a small solar panel for charging. You can load vector charts, raster charts, sight reduction tables, a couple of sailing reference books, manuals, etc. You can also use an app called CamSextant, it allows you to use the camera as a sextant (low precision but will do if crossing an ocean). This setup is lightning proof, I believe.

SV Pizzazz