Paper Charts or Just Electronic

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Ok so one vessel doing a bad job plotting their position and running aground is evidence that we would all do a bad job. Got it, no more paper charts for anyone.

Please let all the agencies for the various governments know so they can stop printing the suckers and save us from the scourge of dangerous paper charts.

Man I’m so relieved.

Have you ever misplotted a running fix, a fix or a DR position while tired, feeling crappy and blouncing around in a small cabin? I have in the pre-GPS days. I would much rather have the chartplotter avoid the mechanical errors of my plotting and do it once a second instead of once every hour.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Here is why plotting on paper charts is obsolete and dangerous. It is the track of the MV Rena hitting Astrolabe reef in NZ. Note the plotted positions vs the actual (electronic chart) positions.

It's neither obsolete or dangerous, anyone that believes so lives with there head in the sand and is incapable of basic chart work and navigation and should stay as far away from water as possible.....

Seriously some of you guys should be consultants for the IMO/IHO and the rest of the world's Hydrographic offices cause they have obviously had it wrong all these years.....and while your at it nip into all the reputable Maritime Collages around the planet and put them straight, obviously they have it all wrong to...

Some of you need to get it through your heads that the main target for paper charts is not the grotty yottie/recreational boatie but comercial shipping, you have a choice whether you want to use them or not, if you don't want to then don't, nobody cares! but quit the BS about how relevant they are....

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Yep. Chart book printed on plastic paper.

I don't think it quite hit 20kt but I didn't worry about it blowing away. Didn't rain but it did get spray on it and was none the worse for it.

We have water-resistant chart books issued by NZ authorities for local navigation (coastal) but when venturing over the horizon its back to paper. And, for example, the average Admiralty charts are large and if used in a cockpit would need to be folded in quarters.

But then I suppose there are not a whole lot of folks going over the horizon in 20ft boats although if I’m not mistaken Catalina is a little over 20nm from LA which I suppose is over the horizon

I just know that my cockpit which has quite generous proportions, would be too small to manage admiralty charts at sea.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

Some of you need to get it through your heads that the main target for paper charts is not the grotty yottie/recreational boatie but comercial shipping, you have a choice whether you want to use them or not, if you don't want to then don't, nobody cares! but quit the BS about how relevant they are....

Actually, commercial shipping is eliminating paper charts more and more. In a few years, no commercial ship will carry paper charts. They are too expensive, time consuming to update and don't carry any extra information that is not available in an approved ECDIS system. So if fully electronic systems are good enough for the largest ship lines in the world then maybe, just maybe they are good enough for us amateurs.

My own person view is that the question of this thread kind of misses the point. A better question might be what are the best practices for using paper and/or electronic charts to keep one's boat and crew safe? Either one can be seriously misused without the proper training and periodic skills practice. I think it likely that paper and electronic charts are pretty equally misused by the majority of cruisers. If you are using and maintaining skills in best practices for paper or electronic charts either version will keep you out of trouble. If you don't use best practices then they will both equally get you into trouble.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Here is why plotting on paper charts is obsolete and dangerous. It is the track of the MV Rena hitting Astrolabe reef in NZ. Note the plotted positions vs the actual (electronic chart) positions.

Except that the paper charts for NZ are freely available as raster charts, so they are the same thing. Unlike in most countries, you can use electronic charts in NZ and get exactly as good information as paper. Not the case in most of the world.

With either type, going the wrong way can get you into trouble.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

I think it likely that paper and electronic charts are pretty equally misused by the majority of cruisers. If you are using and maintaining skills in best practices for paper or electronic charts either version will keep you out of trouble. If you don't use best practices then they will both equally get you into trouble.

I must be missing something important.

How do I mis-use a chart? I look at the chart, see what’s around me, see my position relative to what’s around me, my desired direction of travel/destination and respond accordingly.

What constitutes “best practise”?

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

I must be missing something important.

How do I mis-use a chart? I look at the chart, see what’s around me, see my position relative to what’s around me, my desired direction of travel/destination and respond accordingly.

What constitutes “best practise”?

Misplot a fix or a bearing line while using your dividers or parallel rules.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

Some of you need to get it through your heads that the main target for paper charts is not the grotty yottie/recreational boatie but comercial shipping, ..

And THAT, is most likely why the charts are out in a lot of areas.
Commercial shipping travels a well beaten and well charted course.
Grotty yottie/recreational boatie quite often does not.

This is why I and many others prefer the charting system that essentially allows us to make my own satellite derived charts.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Actually, commercial shipping is eliminating paper charts more and more. In a few years, no commercial ship will carry paper charts. They are too expensive, time consuming to update and don't carry any extra information that is not available in an approved ECDIS system. So if fully electronic systems are good enough for the largest ship lines in the world then maybe, just maybe they are good enough for us amateurs.

Maybe so, but then ECDIS systems must be considered more robust than the typical recreational-level systems most of us use, no? If I understood it correctly, Jackdale posted awhile back that Canada still requires paper charts for all vessels who do not have the requisite ECDIS systems onboard. There must be a good reason for this, unless they're casting too wide a net.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Actually, commercial shipping is eliminating paper charts more and more. In a few years, no commercial ship will carry paper charts. They are too expensive, time consuming to update and don't carry any extra information that is not available in an approved ECDIS system. So if fully electronic systems are good enough for the largest ship lines in the world then maybe, just maybe they are good enough for us amateurs.

My own person view is that the question of this thread kind of misses the point. A better question might be what are the best practices for using paper and/or electronic charts to keep one's boat and crew safe? Either one can be seriously misused without the proper training and periodic skills practice. I think it likely that paper and electronic charts are pretty equally misused by the majority of cruisers. If you are using and maintaining skills in best practices for paper or electronic charts either version will keep you out of trouble. If you don't use best practices then they will both equally get you into trouble.

I am a working Master Mariner, you are not informing me of anything that i do not already know about, i have been using electronic nav in all it's forms since it's inception. When i did my last ECDIS course (see post 50) one of the main subjects are the short comings with electronic nav (and there are plenty) this is something which they hammer into you and you are examined on to see if it's sunk in, ....as for your comment "In a few years, no commercial ship will carry paper charts" well you had better define "few" and "no commercial ship", there are a lot of ships out there that will never see an ECDIS system, look up the carriage requirements and implementation dates, easy to pick which vessels it doesn't apply to.....

My beef is not with whether you should carry paper or electronic or both, it's with those who claim that paper is (as donradcliffe put it) obsolete and dangerous, that somehow using electronic is safer, it's not! if you can't safely navigate with paper then you will not do any better with electronic, if you can't safely move about without having a screen in front of your face and just following a line on that screen, then yes, a paper chart is no good to you whatsoever so don't use them....

If people don't want or are incapable of safely using paper charts then don't, i don't care, but give the BS about the safety of using them a rest, your just convincing those that can, that you can't......

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

And THAT, is most likely why the charts are out in a lot of areas.
Commercial shipping travels a well beaten and well charted course.
Grotty yottie/recreational boatie quite often does not.

This is why I and many others prefer the charting system that essentially allows us to make my own satellite derived charts.

Nothing wrong with that, i have a huge collection of "Mud Maps", both electronic and paper, which also means if i trash my plotter i can move seamlessly to my paper ones............

[barnakiel]

The 'actual' position is always neither on digital nor on a paper chart. The actual position is WHERE THE BOAT IS.


Paper digital or whatever are only references and can be each wrong in their own ways.


Today, when a boat ends on a rock, it is hardly ever a charting issue. It is nearly always a human error. For very few charts today are inaccurate to the point where a cautious navigator would clip a corner. Of the places we have visited I can only remember one such area (Torres Strait Islands). Pay due berth, my friend.


PAY DUE BERTH.



I can still remember that cat owner who made much ado about some app not being accurate enough and so, in the middle of the night, he decided sailing to Bora was like attending a captain ball on Queen Mary II. Just look at their video and make a mental note.


Such examples are if not countless then at least numerous enough to call some men idiots.


Not to say I am not. Call it human nature.


Cheers,

b.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Have you ever misplotted a running fix, a fix or a DR position while tired, feeling crappy and blouncing around in a small cabin? I have in the pre-GPS days. I would much rather have the chartplotter avoid the mechanical errors of my plotting and do it once a second instead of once every hour.

Yes I have. I like GPS & chartplotters and am happy to have them aboard.

That said it’s not a binary choice, you can have both and there are good reasons to carry some paper backups.

In the case of DonR’s post he provided the specious example of the grounding of the Rena in NewZealand ascribing it to poor chart work on paper charts to which I replied with deserved derision.

The reason for the grounding was a series failures and what DonR indicates was a plotting failure was an after the fact attempt by 2 officers to misrepresent their position just before the grounding which included rewriting the log.

Would a chart plotter have helped prevent the grounding? Probably and the accident report says as much.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

I guess depending on charts, paper or electronic, while sailing near hard stuff in the water is probably not wise. Visual confirmation is important as is depth readings from a sounder.

I have a friend (experienced voyager) who has no problem entering strange harbours at night depending entirely on electronics (GPS, radar, depth sounder) to get him safely to an anchorage. One of his forays includes entering Penryhn in the Cook Islands at night to anchor off Omoko Village. The image attached makes the hair stand on my neck!

As much as I support the use of electronics for pilotage, my faith doesn’t stretch that far. I do what it needs to arrive at unfamiliar entrances in daylight (shorten sail, slow the boat). If not possible, I stand off until visual confirmation supports electronics.

So in this case I am betting he is relying on radar and depth sounder far more than a chartplotter, no?

[barnakiel]

You do not have to 'transfer gps fixes'.


You simply add a waypoint to the gps then sail by the gps. You do not need a plotter for this. A dumb old Garmin 12 could do that too (30 years ago). C'mon get to read that manual!


All that 'transfer' wpts etc things just do the homework BEFORE you even leave the dock. The boat is flat and you are not 'being thrown across'.


It is possible not to be able to learn how to use a gps, and also possible not to be able to learn how to use paper charts. I think these are called, dysgpsia and dyschartsia, respectively. They have common source too.


b.