Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

[Auzzee]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I will also use my chart plotter, and if something happened to it I'd sell all my t-shirts and buy another.

You've got more than two t-shirts?

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Auzzee

You've got more than two t-shirts?

No, but see, all I have to do is sell each of them for $250 each and Bob's my uncle!

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Well, that was my point ... it makes a terrible electronic chart IMO.

I personally don't think paper charts should be eliminated and as long as they print them and I'm sailing, I'll use them.

I will also use my chart plotter, and if something happened to it I'd sell all my t-shirts and buy another.

Some people feel their electronics are infalible and don't want to carry manual forms of navigation or know how to work them. Some would rather stick with the tried and true aviod technology. I just built a new proper chart table with paper chart storage above and two lap tops inside with spare GPS.

[Greggegner]

Originally Posted by Richard5

Late 2011 the FAA started to allow the airlines to have e-charts only (Electronic Flight Bags, or EFB).

They have a very good preventative maintenance program. I think mine is short of their's so I will make sure I have enough paper to plot and get me home...or lease close...

[rebel heart]

The FAA is only enforcing domestic flights, right? They can't seriously be saying that you don't need real charts for flying anywhere on the globe, and can they even enforce that anyway?

Down in Mexico the charts are wrong regardless of paper or electric; they charted them wrong years ago, often to the tune of a couple miles of incorrect longitude. There are new charts that are fixes and there are some published GPS waypoints but solid coastal navigation skills (3lop, dr, double angle on the bow, etc) are never fail techniques.

9/10 the folks following the chart plotter honestly don't know crap about how to do real navigation. I just bought a webasto heater for $10 from some guy who put his Hunter on the rocks in Mexico after following his chart plotter. Some other guys smashed into the Coronado Islands, all dead onboard.

[Cookiesa]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

The FAA is only enforcing domestic flights, right? They can't seriously be saying that you don't need real charts for flying anywhere on the globe, and can they even enforce that anyway?

Down in Mexico the charts are wrong regardless of paper or electric; they charted them wrong years ago, often to the tune of a couple miles of incorrect longitude. There are new charts that are fixes and there are some published GPS waypoints but solid coastal navigation skills (3lop, dr, double angle on the bow, etc) are never fail techniques.

9/10 the folks following the chart plotter honestly don't know crap about how to do real navigation. I just bought a webasto heater for $10 from some guy who put his Hunter on the rocks in Mexico after following his chart plotter. Some other guys smashed into the Coronado Islands, all dead onboard.

Ican use a sextant and dead reckoning, choose not to. Prefer to enjoy the sailing. How many ships have been lost over the years with experienced and professional crews?

But thanks for the laugh, the charts are wrong, love to see how dr, a plotter, double angle etc help with a reef that is charted in the wrong location. Unless you have the correct locations for them. If you are referring to good seamanship and keeping a look out, required regardless of paper or gps.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

The FAA is only enforcing domestic flights, right? They can't seriously be saying that you don't need real charts for flying anywhere on the globe, and can they even enforce that anyway?

Down in Mexico the charts are wrong regardless of paper or electric; they charted them wrong years ago, often to the tune of a couple miles of incorrect longitude. There are new charts that are fixes and there are some published GPS waypoints but solid coastal navigation skills (3lop, dr, double angle on the bow, etc) are never fail techniques.

9/10 the folks following the chart plotter honestly don't know crap about how to do real navigation. I just bought a webasto heater for $10 from some guy who put his Hunter on the rocks in Mexico after following his chart plotter. Some other guys smashed into the Coronado Islands, all dead onboard.

It ain't the chart plotter that's the problem, its the people who don't know how to navigate. The boat that hit the Coronado Islands obviously didn't look at their chart plotter or their charts, or maintain a watch.

How many paper charts are you taking with you?? There are over 20,000 vector charts in the CM93 portfolio, and they all fit on one DVD. Even making pirate paper copies is going to cost a lot.

[Mr B]

Half a mile off Luatoka beach there is a man made reef, not visible at high tide from the beach,

Its Not on my paper charts, Its not on my GPS,

My depth sounder picked it up just as I was about to plough into it at night,

It was dark and I could not see it, it was standing 2 feet out of the water at low tide,

Paper versus Electronic, Its been the same through the ages,

The bow and arrow and spears brigade said that these new fangled Guns would never amount to much,

The flat earth society were up in arms when people told them the earth was round,
That was pure unadulterated Heresy,
Dont go out of sight of the land, you will fall off the edge of the earth,

The Vikings travelled a long way with out charts,
The Hawaians travelled to New Zealand with out charts,
The Dutch travelled with out charts,
Captain Cook travelled with out charts, He made them up as he went along,
Columbus travelled with out charts,

When I was a kid, any thing in outer space was pure fiction,
Now the sky is littered with satellites and space junk,
A computer weighed 2/12 ton,
You could not ring over seas with your phone,
A letter took six weeks to get to England or America from Australia,

To get an accurate fix with your GPS you need 3 satellites minimum, You will probably get fixed by 5 or 6 at the moment,
You can talk to any one, any where in the world by mobile telephone, Now, No matter where you are,

Google, Skype, Mobile, Cell, Satnav,

Ebay, I can buy what ever I want, Anywhere in the world, and its in my hand within a week,

Epirbs, You will be rescued any where in the world within a couple of days if the worst unfortunately happens,

All this has happened in the last 50 years,

Your lastest and amazing piece of electronic wizardry of Technology is outdated and upgraded before it even hits the shelves for you to buy it the first time round,

What will we have in another ten years, let alone twenty years, The mind Boggles,

The populated are's with a lot of commercial shipping is extensively charted, any where else that does not have commercial shipping is not so well charted, and there are places still not charted,

So Paper or GPS will be absolutely no use to you, Then it will be just your eye balls, and a depth sounder.
But it is up to the individual what they use, for the safety of their vessel, The more you have, The better, and the less things that can go wrong,

But you can navigate with out Paper or GPS.

A map of the world and a compass, Unless your in sight of land, then its your eyeballs that do the work, You can go any where,

[Auzzee]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Half a mile off Luatoka beach there is a man made reef, not visible at high tide from the beach. Its Not on my paper charts, Its not on my GPS. My depth sounder picked it up just as I was about to plough into it at night

Watcha need old mate, is forward looking sonar!

Then with all the other gear, just programme the boat to sail itself to Bora Bora, fly there and meet it. All the new gizmos are truly great and time saving, and are aids to safety, but it's sort of reducing the adventure and seamanship quotient.

[svBeBe]

Wow. Just wow. I saw the title of this thread in the box on the right showing Recent Discussions. Thought a discussion about paper charts still being necessary might be enlightening. But 52 pages of 774 comments????

Way too long a thread to read. Moving on.

Judy

[noelex 77]

I appreciate everyone keeping there answers civil on this matter. I know there are strong beliefs on both sides.

Perhaps it's time after nearly 800 posts to widen the debate slightly.

I had a moment three nights ago that caused me to reflect how useful technology has become.

At about 3AM (why do problems always occur at this time) I had to up anchor and move due to the actions of a couple of charter boats.
The anchorage was on a totally deserted island so no shore lights at all. There was a half moon, but thick cloud and heavy rain so almost no visibility.

I had a radar, including a radar overlay on the chart plotter, which showed me where the map was wrong. The anchorage had some very heavy weed, with poor holding, but I had a google earth map which showed the sand areas quite well. The anchorage was deep needing very careful anchor placement.
I could re anchor very easily, no drama, these things happen cruising ( although I did curse the charterers )

Could this have been done with limited technology, say only depth sounder, GPS and paper charts?

Yes, but it would have required a great deal of care, skill and maybe even a bit luck.

Technology has often been presented in this thread as something that causes problems. I think we are ignoring the situations where it provides real safety benefits. I am not saying every boat must have this equipment, merely that it provides a positive contribution to safety when available.

Thoughts.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

At about 3AM (why do problems always occur at this time) I had to up anchor and move due to the actions of a couple of charter boats.

The only electronics you needed that night was a loud hailer...
"YOUR TOO F^$&!%G CLOSE...GO ANCHOR SOMEWHERE ELSE"!

[rebel heart]

Originally Posted by Cookiesa

Ican use a sextant and dead reckoning, choose not to. Prefer to enjoy the sailing. How many ships have been lost over the years with experienced and professional crews?

But thanks for the laugh, the charts are wrong, love to see how dr, a plotter, double angle etc help with a reef that is charted in the wrong location. Unless you have the correct locations for them. If you are referring to good seamanship and keeping a look out, required regardless of paper or gps.

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

It ain't the chart plotter that's the problem, its the people who don't know how to navigate. The boat that hit the Coronado Islands obviously didn't look at their chart plotter or their charts, or maintain a watch.

How many paper charts are you taking with you?? There are over 20,000 vector charts in the CM93 portfolio, and they all fit on one DVD. Even making pirate paper copies is going to cost a lot.

Guys, just go walk up and down the docks. Ask the people with chart plotters if they know how to calculate set and drift, and ask them to do it for you. Ask them the difference between variance and deviation. Hell, ask them if they even know about different datums and what that means. There are great skippers with chart plotters and electronic nav, but it also allows folks to think they don't need real navigational chops.

A DR plot isn't necessarily going to help you dodge a reef, but it will keep you from falsely thinking that you really know where you are. It's been said but I'll say it again. With less modern techniques you need to be substantially more observant about your surroundings. Chart plotters lull folks into a false sense of security.

That whole "I use all means of navigation" is honestly horseshit. I've yet to meet a single skipper who honestly is shooting noon sights when a chart plotter is sitting there putting a dot on the screen. People are lazy, they do the least they can, and in the case of navigation the "least" is not enough, in my opinion.

Regarding paper charts, for getting down to Panama I've got three cruising guides and the Yachtsman chart book plus a couple of individuals. Way less cost than the insanely expensive electronics rigs I've seen on modern boats. Because it's not just the chart plotter. It's the charts. It's the radar overlay. It's the AIS overlay. It's the integration with the autopilot. It's the blah blah blah. All this crap that is definitely more "convenient" than a knotmeter (or even handheld GPS), some paper, a compass, and some binoculars.

[bobconnie]

Im with Rebel Heart on this one !! And Im still willing to buy those out dated charts you folks with those fancy plotters have deemed Out Dated !! So far all of ya have backed water on the sale of your OUT DATED Charts !! LOL Im still buying !! To add to the 50 + lbs of charts I allready have aboard !!

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Well, that was my point ... it makes a terrible electronic chart IMO.

I personally don't think paper charts should be eliminated and as long as they print them and I'm sailing, I'll use them.

I will also use my chart plotter, and if something happened to it I'd sell all my t-shirts and buy another.
Some people feel their electronics are infalible and don't want to carry manual forms of navigation or know how to work them. Some would rather stick with the tried and true aviod technology. I just built a new proper chart table with paper chart storage above and two lap tops inside with spare GPS.


What I have said is not terribly useful -- IMO -- are the hand-helds. The screens are very small and they're awkard to program reliably.

I think a charplotter, in the hands of someone who knows how to use it, has one GREAT advantage in that it can zoom in to exactly you are, and give you a lot of detailed information, very clearly and very quickly.

IMO, it's a serious mistake not to compare that information to a paper chart.