Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-07-2012, 10:20   #121
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,770
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

ROCKS!!!! SHALLOWS!!!! COASTAL ABERRANCIES!!!!! and a big boxy sea to send ye into em.....

many not entered into the electronic chart system--but are in the paper charts--- and at night--i want the concession for curb feelers.....better than television for entertainment.....
__________________

zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 23:31   #122
Senior Cruiser
 
s/v Beth's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
Boat: Valiant 40 (1975)
Posts: 4,066
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

I trust eyes first, compass or visual fix next, and then I am greatly relieved when a plotter or chart agrees with me. I am not going over the breakers just because there is enough depth by adding the current tide depth to the plotter numbers....
__________________

__________________
s/v Beth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 00:32   #123
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Well...It looks like 50/50 paper vs plotter. I'll bet 5 years ago it was 80/20. For me, I have paper and not because I think they're better...I just don't know. Much like the other paper guys and gals here...we have little or no exposure to plotters. If I add items like a plotter and more support and back up equipment, I'll never leave. Ya just gotta go and use what ya have.
Zee...the reason the guy stole your charts is because you didn't have a plotter he could steal!...
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 01:03   #124
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
ROCKS!!!! SHALLOWS!!!! COASTAL ABERRANCIES!!!!! and a big boxy sea to send ye into em.....

many not entered into the electronic chart system--but are in the paper charts--- and at night--i want the concession for curb feelers.....better than television for entertainment.....
The quality of charts is important, they are only as good as the the accuracy of the information they provide.
It's hard to compare paper and electronic charts because few boats carry detailed and up to date copies of both.
My own impression is that both media are very similar. The electronic charts tend to be more up to date and for many charts you can download the latest version direct from the Internet. It is theoretically possible to correct paper charts, but I don't know any long distance sailors that do this. Paper charts can be commercially corrected and this is done by racing sailors mainly because it's a requirement of the race rules, but long distance sailors have too many paper charts and the cost (or time if you did it yourself) would be prohibitive.

As a general trend I have noticed electronic charts tend to show a more rocks and obstructions particuarly in anchorages. Most of the time they are correct, but it's not unusual for there to be no hazard where one is shown, but this is better than the alternative of not showning a hazard where one exists.

For both paper and electronics there is big difference between the quality of maps in popular and deserted areas.
Once you start crusing out of the way places depths are sometimes totally wrong and even features such as smaller islands are sometimes not shown.

One good thing about electronic charts is that it's easy to have several versions from different companies of the same area. Google earth and the community layer on maps can also be useful.
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 06:59   #125
One of Those
 
Canibul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
Boat: Catalac 12M
Posts: 3,209
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
ROCKS!!!! SHALLOWS!!!! COASTAL ABERRANCIES!!!!! and a big boxy sea to send ye into em.....

many not entered into the electronic chart system--but are in the paper charts--- and at night--i want the concession for curb feelers.....better than television for entertainment.....
I'm admittedly still a little gun shy after lightning hit the mast 40 ft. above our heads recently, but....

I've never yet had a paper chart suddenly quit, blue screen, or lock up on me at a critical moment. They don't need a keyboard. I don't worry about them shorting out or bursting into flames. I can take them on the dinghy ashore and study them in the shade of a local tavern.

and the instruction manual and help functions are simplicity defined.
__________________
Expat life in the Devil's Triangle:
http://2gringos.blogspot.com/
Canibul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 07:41   #126
Registered User
 
mbianka's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,125
Images: 1
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Well...It looks like 50/50 paper vs plotter. I'll bet 5 years ago it was 80/20. For me, I have paper and not because I think they're better...I just don't know. Much like the other paper guys and gals here...we have little or no exposure to plotters. If I add items like a plotter and more support and back up equipment, I'll never leave. Ya just gotta go and use what ya have.
Zee...the reason the guy stole your charts is because you didn't have a plotter he could steal!...
I think for many of us it is not "either or" question as the title of this thread implies. I often single hand my boat and I have no problem using a chart plotter at the helm:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: WHAT THE HELM?: Part 2
but, I will also have a chart book or chart in the cockpit too and a large scale chart on the table down below. I will use all the tools available but, do believe in having a non electric backup. I find it is often easier to take a quick glance at a chart than fiddle with the buttons and joystick of the chart plotter to see what's up ahead. I have not had a direct hit by lightning yet but, I like knowing all my eggs are not in the electric basket if it does.
__________________
Capt. Mike
mbianka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 08:00   #127
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New York, New York
Boat: Dufour Safari 27'
Posts: 386
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Well... If you think James Bond movies reflect reality ... the sky is falling! The sky is falling!

All electronics are evil! They must be stamped out! Whatever you do, don't use charts AND electronics, or for heaven's sake, ALWAYS start with the charts -- or you are a bad person!

Hyperbole is never persuasive, and neither are worst case scenarios that have never actually happened.

I LIKE knowing exactly what my lat and long are. The one time I had to be rescued, SeaTow called very five minutes for our lat and long. an SAR outfit also monitored those communications. They came out and would have been there if I had fallen in the water (a very real possibility) while catching the tow.

They didn't tell me to get the chart out and plot my course. They wanted me (and so did SAR) to focus on managing the boat and just report where we were. By using the handheld chart plotter my crew could easily update SeaTow (and unbeknownst to us, SAR) while I maneuvered the boat to handle the waves as best possible under the circumstances.

No one here argues against EPIRBs, but what do they send out -- reports of what's 40 degrees to starboard on land? No -- the signal's lat and long. We know EPIRBs have saved lives.

These things aren't bad. I know two people who use or have used them quite stupidly, but both of them have been sailing much longer than chart plotters have been available. They're both in their 70's and I wonder how clearly they think (seriously, both of them ...).

I know another sailor in his 70s, a retired naval architect and marine surveyer who taught celestial navigation to other seamen while in the Navy. He uses all the tools available to him, including chart plotters. I was with him when his chart plotter died. He used the information from before it died PLUS information from the visual view of the shore and navigated the boat right to the difficult-to-find channel entrance. Even dead, his chart plotter had helped -- he knew exactly where he was when he started to rely solely his coastal navigation skills.
I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I wasn't arguing that electronics were bad. I feel there are simply a tool and like any tool, they can be good or bad depending upon the usage. I too use GPS navigation most of the time.

I was however arguing against over reliance on electronics or perhaps, against blind faith in them. I agree that they are very reliable the vast majority of the time. I also must say that I am not too worried about the ones posting here since they seem to be pretty competent and their comments suggest that have some sort of back up. I am concerned about those who use the GPS without situational awareness and a back up plan.

Others have wisely commented that they take what they get from the charts (paper or electronic) and make sure it is consistent with what they see. My earlier comments were simply to point out that GPS isn't completely immune to failure and that in rare but very real situations it can be wrong. These are not hypothetical problems. They are rare but have happened. If I am cruising down the coast I am not worried too much about errors since I have a visual reference and can verify my plot. If I am in the open ocean then I am using a different system to make sure the GPS navigation equipment is correct. Remember, nothing is infallible. Anything that is downloaded could have a virus. No one thought mobile phones would have viruses yet now they can even replicate via bluetooth. There have even been very rare but very real cases where the chips themselves had a built in computing error. Very few were affected but it can happen. The odds are small but so too are the odds that I will need my life raft and other emergency equipment, yet we have them.

I also agree with the convenience of GPS especially in situations you describe with SeaTow however that is somewhat different than the subject. The original thread was about the possible need or lack of need for paper back up. I think we can all agree that not everyone has sufficient back up for navigation. We've all seen people head out, let the GPS do the navigation for them, and not have a full understanding of where they are. If the system fails for what ever reason, many of these people don't have a back up or can't use it since they weren't paying attention because the GPS nav system was handling everything. A hand help back up is good in many cases since they are battery powered and independent of a ships electrical system. Unfortunately many don't have an independent back up whether paper or electronic.

I personally prefer a paper back up since there is very little that can go wrong with it. This assumes however that one is paying attention and has been keeping their plot current. Any back up is no good if you don't know where your last position was or have an ability to plot your current position.

Paper or Plastic? Neither choice is inherently right or wrong when done properly.
__________________
ArmyDaveNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 08:02   #128
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,770
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

celestial sailor--i have ALL the tricks in my boat--plotter. radar. simrad hdl2000 autopilot---lolo..i have everything.

i use paper charts because the land masses arenot properly shaped with the gps and there are many things missing from the gps charts that are found on the paper ones--even the paper ones that say 1865. LOL

the creep stole my charts because he has no moral standards or conscience.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 08:03   #129
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New York, New York
Boat: Dufour Safari 27'
Posts: 386
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

There have been a number of comments about the reduced usage of paper charts. Does anyone know if you can print out the electronic charts? Many companies now print on demand and I was wondering if any chart companies have moved to this model.
__________________
ArmyDaveNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 08:51   #130
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY View Post
There have been a number of comments about the reduced usage of paper charts. Does anyone know if you can print out the electronic charts? Many companies now print on demand and I was wondering if any chart companies have moved to this model.
It is a good idea. It certainly possible to print from most of the program's on PC or tablet.
Chartplotter maps are more difficult, but most of the chartplotter companies have PC programs that will read the map cartridges and presumably you could print from these.
If you were concerned about the security of your electronic backups you could print some relevant charts on the boat before the trip.
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 09:03   #131
cruiser

Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 122
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

there was a time when courts would not allow electronic media as evidence... that meant Bill Gates would need to keep a 'written' journal of his day... couldnt even keep an electronic one and then print it out...

he would go to court weekly with a written 'diary'

now courts routinely look at electronic media... and the only question was how 'reliable' is that media.. was it altered before / after, and how to determine the time stamp...

point is, electronics is now a way of life... wheterh we rely on them or not is not the question, but how we use them... if someone were to state they followed the GPS/CP and didnt see the rock/ship/pier in front of them, they would be at fault...

but to set a course, and use all other resources at hand, then fine... he did his best effort and couldnt be held negligent... but then again, all charts, including CP state clearly they are not to relied upon as the SOLE resource... and disclaimers abound....

having charts that are older, not updated weekly, or prior to voyages is another example of someone who 'relies' on paper but failed to do his due diligence in preparation... if you are serious about cruising, and or do this for your livliehood, you will get latest charts, update electronic charts, plan and review everything to mitigate as much of what you can control as there are far too many things we can not control to deal with when out in the waters...

the discussion about whether or not paper is useless is moot... some are old schoolers who still use slide rules, some use abacus, some use calculators, some use tin cans tied to strings, etc...

it is what ever someone is used to...
__________________
sailinman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 09:23   #132
Registered User
 
SailingwithSoul's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: New York
Boat: In between boats
Posts: 215
Images: 2
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

I tried to read through all 9 pages of this thread. It's just my personal way of sailing, but for me, electronics are my back-up to paper. I can trust the paper will not shift, corrode, or bud out on me. If I need some specific detail, then I'll switch on my gps. Otherwise I use the landmarks and contours of my paper charts to find my location. I love technology, but nothing outlasts the salt.
__________________
SailingwithSoul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 09:50   #133
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 2,961
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
To clarify my yacht has done a cicumnavigation not me. (the comment was i still have all the paper charts from the yachts circumnavigation) I have sailed and owned a yacht for the last 25 years including extensive water sailing">blue water sailing. I have spent the last 5 years living and cruising full time on my yacht
I hope in the next few years to do a slow 1/2 circumnavigation, (I am not keen on sailing in pirate waters)
Just out of curiosity, what does a stack of charts from an entire circumnavigation look like? That's quite a valuable asset to accompany a boat. Must also be a bit of a logistical challenge, but so is keeping all of one's various electronic charts updated & managed. Based on my experience of purchasing paper charts from just a coastal trip from Charleton to the Chspk, I'd be curious how big a stack of paper all your charts create.
__________________
Exile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 09:54   #134
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,770
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

paper charts donot necessarily create a stack of paper---i stash mine is chart rack, and in tubes water tight for use when i get to that area in which they are needed.
i aso do not stash all my charts in one place---learned hard way that some folks will steal them..go figger.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 10:18   #135
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Just out of curiosity, what does a stack of charts from an entire circumnavigation look like? That's quite a valuable asset to accompany a boat. Must also be a bit of a logistical challenge, but so is keeping all of one's various electronic charts updated & managed. Based on my experience of purchasing paper charts from just a coastal trip from Charleton to the Chspk, I'd be curious how big a stack of paper all your charts create.
Most are under the bed at the moment rolled up one inside the other. They are reasonably large.
The passage notes scrawled in the margins and the position crosses make interesting reading something future owners of the boat won't get from my electronic charts.
__________________

__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
charts

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:10.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.