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Old 08-07-2012, 09:27   #106
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
The back up systems would still work. Some of the plotters are rated for a minute immersion at 1m, which is better than a paper chart.
Back up systems can be further waterproofed in Decor container or similar. It's hard to store charts in such containers because of the physical size. A leak in your chart locker can ruin a few charts before its noticed.
What if you lose all battery power on a long voyage? Paper charts and a sextant and the knowledge to use it would be the basics. chart plotters etc. are modern conveniences. Nice to have but Not to be relied upon.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:37   #107
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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how would you teach someone how to measure distance with a pair of dividers on an electronic chart!

how would you teach someone how to use a compass rose and lay off a bearing on a electronic chart!

how would you teach someone to correct a bearing from magnetic to true on an electronic chart!
Yes I agree if you want to teach someone navigation a paper chart is the best way to start, and a paper chart of the current area so they could practice would be important.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:38   #108
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

a leak in your chart locker??? You kept yours in the bilge?

SOME of the plotters are rated....systems CAN be waterproofed in decor....It's HARD to store charts in containers....????

you're kidding me, right?
Let me ask....are YOUR pltters rated for immersion? Are all your connectors waterproof? Are all your electronics in containers while you use them?

as for storing charts.....well, lets fold boththe electronic ones and the paper ones in half four times, and then unfold them, and see which took up less room.

and which still works.

Don't get me wrong, i use both openCPN and MaxSEA.....and had a lightning strike that took out my interfaced GPS and the laptop it was running on. The lightning didn't faze the book of Explorer charts, though.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:44   #109
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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What if you lose all battery power on a long voyage? Paper charts and a sextant and the knowledge to use it would be the basics. chart plotters etc. are modern conveniences. Nice to have but Not to be relied upon.
With redundant battery and charging options available it's a hard scenario to imagine, but in the event of this eventually many of the electronic charting systems have their own battery supply and with intermittent use this should provide plenty of chart time to complete a voyage.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:44   #110
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Yes I agree if you want to teach someone navigation a paper chart is the best way to start, and a paper chart of the current area so they could practice would be important.
so you would also agree that paper charts have a place on a boat for anybody new to navigation theory!

sorry to be pedantic but we are not all experinced navigators,and without paper charts how are we ever going to teach the the next generation basic common sense navigation!
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:47   #111
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

paper charts are well kept in tubes with ends that are water tight so they dont become moldy or moist while not in use.
there are also antiquated and lovely works in wood called chart racks that can be placed in dry areas of boat......land masses are better defined , i have found, on the paper charts than with the gps charts. makes a big difference in new to you areas cruised. where the gps shows vague and poorly defined electronic coastlines, , THERE ARE ACTUALLY COVES AND ROCKS marked in the paper charts.... go figger.....
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:50   #112
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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so you would also agree that paper charts have a place on a boat for anybody new to navigation theory!

sorry to be pedantic but we are not all experinced navigators,and without paper charts how are we ever going to teach the the next generation basic common sense navigation!
Yes I would agree.
All my family and friends that have an interest in this already have the necessary skills. The only exception is my niece and if she visited the boat I would get a suitable paper chart (if I don't already have one) to teach her.
Much better than most of the stuff they learn in school.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:51   #113
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Mi motto, Be ready for the worst, hope for the best ....
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:52   #114
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Do I recall the OP noting that he did a circumnavigation some years back? His comments certainly have this relative noob's attention, as do the useful comments of other experienced sailors on this thread -- pro & con.

Personally, I always try & apply the best of the old and the new, which is why I suppose I choose to own a more traditional boat that I have thoroughly modernized. Although I'm a big proponent of modern electronic navigation, etc., I was amazed how expensive & cumbersome it was to acquire what I thought was a prudent set of paper charts for a coastal trip from Charleston to the Chesapeake. I can't imagine how much paper I will need to acquire for an eventual sail through the Caribbean, to say nothing of a circumnavigation.

I have already read of several sailors who are relying solely on electronic charting on lengthy voyages, and it wouldn't surprise me if the commercial big boys are now doing the same. I, for one, will always likely have paper charts onboard as backup for wherever I may go, and continue to always pencil in my L/L. I only do this because I believe there's no such thing as an "overabundance of caution" on the high seas and to not lose the basc skills, not because I have grave concerns about electronic failures at this stage of their development. Like some other posters, I feel that helm-mounted plotters, radar, AIS, etc. only enhance situational awareness and therefore safety, provided one doesn't become complacent & lazy in the unlikely event of system failure.

FWIW . . . (from one of the less experienced on the forum)
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:00   #115
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Let me ask....are YOUR pltters rated for immersion?
.
Yes IP67 1m submersion for 30 mins.
I have my doubts if they meet these specifications in the real world, but the 2 chart plotters are in separate locations so severe water intrusion in unlikely for both. If this did happen the back ups would be used.
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Are all your electronics in containers while you use them?
.
No but the back ups are stored in this way.
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:01   #116
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

entering a harbor, especially a new and strange to you one, in night in a gale is just asking for trouble. doesnt matter if ye have all the new and up to date bs or not. shallower water makes boxy nasty surf. dont want to try that in dark. is bad eough in daylight.
i try to plan my arrivals for daylight hours...easier to see trouble not on the charts or electronic charts. yes--these alleged anomalies are there. none of our nav stuff is foolproof.
eyeballs are best protection against unknown problems.
might wanna install curb feelers on your all electronic boats.....
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:10   #117
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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entering a harbor, especially a new and strange to you one, in night in a gale is just asking for trouble. doesnt matter if ye have all the new and up to date bs or not. shallower water makes boxy nasty surf. dont want to try that in dark. is bad eough in daylight.
i try to plan my arrivals for daylight hours...easier to see trouble not on the charts or electronic charts. yes--these alleged anomalies are there. none of our nav stuff is foolproof.
eyeballs are best protection against unknown problems.
might wanna install curb feelers on your all electronic boats.....
Seriously!! there is ocasions when you dont have other option, be caught 45 miles from la coruņa after a rough Biscay crossing and the radio net shouting Severe gale warning with winds between f9 and f10 i choose to surf to la coruņa with 30 gusting 40 , not my favorite aproach, and i agree that a daytime aproach is safer , be in many ocasions in a Hove to scenario waiting for daylight, but the circunstances tell me put your ass in port right now no matter what, Finisterre or put the bow offshore with f9 to f10 is no no for me.
Cheers.
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:11   #118
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
entering a harbor, especially a new and strange to you one, in night in a gale is just asking for trouble. doesnt matter if ye have all the new and up to date bs or not. shallower water makes boxy nasty surf. dont want to try that in dark. is bad eough in daylight.
i try to plan my arrivals for daylight hours...easier to see trouble not on the charts or electronic charts. yes--these alleged anomalies are there. none of our nav stuff is foolproof.
eyeballs are best protection against unknown problems.
might wanna install curb feelers on your all electronic boats.....
Yes, the scenario described mandates daylight arrival. If the availability of a chartplotter induces a sailor to attempt it at night, it's poor seamanship on the part of the sailor; not the chartplotter to blame. Assuming it's prudently cross-checked with paper & other aids to navigation, I can't imagine anything better than seeing one's actual position overlaid on an actual (electronic) chart.
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:11   #119
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Do I recall the OP noting that he did a circumnavigation some years back?
To clarify my yacht has done a cicumnavigation not me. (the comment was i still have all the paper charts from the yachts circumnavigation) I have sailed and owned a yacht for the last 25 years including extensive blue water sailing. I have spent the last 5 years living and cruising full time on my yacht
I hope in the next few years to do a slow 1/2 circumnavigation, (I am not keen on sailing in pirate waters)
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:16   #120
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

From Google.

Electronic leisure charts

Marine leisure plotters, in the main, use unofficial charts many of which offer useful extra features, such as pictures, but the charts may not tell the whole navigational story.
When a plotter is switched on, it states that; ‘the plotter should not be used as the primary navigational source and should be used in conjunction with official and up to date charts of the country’.
Occasionally, important data is missed or not shown at a particular level of zoom and some shallow patches or charted items are not where you expect them, although they will be on an official paper chart.
This year whilst cruising through a known shortcut, a 0.6 depth was omitted from the chart in an area of 2m depths. As I only had 1m clearance in the 2m depths, it would have been problematic had I not consulted the paper chart and steered around it.
Sometimes when a datum shift is applied to the electronic leisure chart the same shift is applied for the whole sea area whereas, in reality, the shift changes subtly around the coast, once again increasing the total error.
As you zoom into an electronic chart on your chart plotter, the information you see can never be greater than the scale that it was surveyed at many years before which could have been with a lead line in a lumpy sea. As the vessel is portrayed in the centre of the screen, it can lead to a false sense of security.
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