Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-07-2012, 06:26   #91
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
It may shock you, but on many short sails I have no electronics on but a depth sounder and only 1 chart! And those are for backup! But the wind and the water seem to have magic on those days!

Again I ask -- who would be shocked by that? We all have our own "back yards" for sailing. We already know where the bumps in the road, have a chart but don't open it, have a depth sounder but don't need it in that area.

Depth sounders in particular can be very misleading. Just because it's 10 feet where you are does not mean it's going to gradually change to 9, 8, 7, 6 and you have plenty of time to turn around. Sometimes it means you're on the edge of a deep area and about to run right into a ridge.

Relying solely on a depth sounder (not that I'm saying anyone here does) without charts (or deep local knowledge) is far worse than relying on a chart plotter to find the deeper water.
__________________

__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 06:34   #92
Registered User
 
cat man do's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia [until the boats launched]
Boat: 50ft powercat, light,long and low powered
Posts: 4,409
Images: 36
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Not for me. I want both.
Me to, even if the paper is just b&w prints
__________________

__________________
"Money can't buy you happiness but it can buy you a yacht large enough to pull up right alongside it"...............David Lee Roth
Long Distance Motorboat Cruising – It Is Possible on a Small Budget
cat man do is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 06:40   #93
Registered User
 
cat man do's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia [until the boats launched]
Boat: 50ft powercat, light,long and low powered
Posts: 4,409
Images: 36
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Some of these "useless gadgets" actually run on batteries.
I always have 2 handhelds , a slab of AA's and paper as backup in my grab bag when on passage.
__________________
"Money can't buy you happiness but it can buy you a yacht large enough to pull up right alongside it"...............David Lee Roth
Long Distance Motorboat Cruising – It Is Possible on a Small Budget
cat man do is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 07:21   #94
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
And if you transfer your lat/long from the electronics to the paper chart, and then have to rely only on the paper chart, you now have a very accurate and very visual record of what has happened so far. Extra visual info on a visual tool. Invaluable sometimes.
I don't understand what the difference is. The only difference I can see is that the electronic chart gives you a continuous position line ( your track) that is constantly updated where as a paper chart gives you an inferior series of position marks that need to worked out manually.

In the unlikely event of the GPS system fails, electronic charts loose their advantage and the position marks become a series of manually plotted marks on both paper and electronic charts. The historical data remains with both systems. the track on the electronic chart is still visible.

If you are concerned about loosing the historical data on the electronic chart you can record the position in the ships log every hour or so as most people do anyway.
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 08:15   #95
NDH
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Gosport
Boat: Dufour 40
Posts: 104
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

I am a great fan of chart plotters but I do carry large scale paper charts as well.

Like most people I have 2 spare h/h GPS in my bag, and a laptop with 2 different charting programmes. The problem with having all this is trying to remember all the nuances of different software packages.

We were crossing Biscay when at night all the electrics failed, no problem out comes the h/h GPS and the laptop, for the life of me I could not remember how the charting programme worked and how to get it to see the h/h GPS, the h/h GPS also took an age to acquire a satellite fix.

I suspect this was because I was not used to using it every day and I was being distracted by trying to solve the electrical failure so out came the paper chart and a GPS position entered I could concentrate on the boat. It also made me realise the value of keeping the logbook updated at regular intervals.
NDH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 08:23   #96
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,312
Images: 75
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

without papercharts,dividers and a compass rose/plotter/parrelel ruler,it would be very difficult to teach even basic navigation skills to the total novice!
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 08:34   #97
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,777
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

if paper charts are so unnecessary then splainme why it is mine were STOLEN from my boat in mazatlan BY A CRUISER......(yes i replaced em, but not until i got to la cruz de huanacaxtle.)
electronic charts are not all inclusive--many times i have had to refer to paper for the important stuff about the area--and, in some places in gom, electronic takes a nap. for 5 mins, then back on....lol....even hand helds do that. so much for electronic backup for electronic items. satellite coverage is just that--not battery operated error--is sat coverage not overlapping in paces to be found by YOU....was fun.
as for the electronic maps--as i had to use only my gs for map and chart coverage coming into banderas bay and la cruz, i noticed the shapes of land masses are not accurate with electronics--the shape is roughed in--coves do no longer exist, islands are not there--lol-- those without paper charts--HAVE FUN---dont end up in an island grounded, or ground to death. would be a bad read in papers or online.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 08:45   #98
Senior Cruiser
 
s/v Beth's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
Boat: Valiant 40 (1975)
Posts: 4,066
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

OK hyperbole aside, I am deeply concerned that the current generation of sailors are totally dependent on GPS for navigation. The argument stated earlier that with GPS down, our paper charts are just as worthless as the chart plotter is also disturbing because it implies the only way to get a fix is to use a GPS.
This has me upset because:
It implies that one cannot look at a chart and see the land features and match it to what one sees in the cockpit.
It implies that one cannot recongise common navigational aids in the ocean and fix a position by taking a compass reading from those aids.
That we would never know how close we are to danger without looking at some printed/digital material (which can fail).
I had a recent sail in which the captain of another boat was with me. He thought nothing of sailing over dangerous banks (because the depth was sufficient on the charts).
I agree with integration of all sources- but start out with common sense and DR and line of sight navigation first.
__________________
s/v Beth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 08:52   #99
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

You know recently Ive noticed that the steering wheel really gets in my way. As I have an autopilot and a couple of spares I've been thinking of leaving the wheel at home. What do you think?
__________________
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 09:07   #100
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
OK hyperbole aside, I am deeply concerned that the current generation of sailors are totally dependent on GPS for navigation. The argument stated earlier that with GPS down, our paper charts are just as worthless as the chart plotter is also disturbing because it implies the only way to get a fix is to use a GPS.
This has me upset because:
.
I agree with you about the slipping standards and inability to manage without GPS, but it does not make any differenence if you have paper or electronic charts.
Rather than thinking, with the GPS down, both paper and electronic charts are equally worthless I would say they are equally valuable. Both mediums will allow navigation to be done without a GPS
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 09:12   #101
One of Those
 
Canibul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
Boat: Catalac 12M
Posts: 3,209
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Take your paper and your electronic charts and douse them both liberally with a bucket of salt water because a forward window just blew out.

Electronic just as good huh?
__________________
Expat life in the Devil's Triangle:
http://2gringos.blogspot.com/
Canibul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 09:15   #102
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,312
Images: 75
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

how would you teach someone how to measure distance with a pair of dividers on an electronic chart!

how would you teach someone how to use a compass rose and lay off a bearing on a electronic chart!

how would you teach someone to correct a bearing from magnetic to true on an electronic chart!
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 09:19   #103
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Well, technology and electrical electronic gizmos drive us to a world where the toilets are vacum flush, electric, roller furlers with electric engines, holding tanks with electronic gauges to measure the poo level, chartploters with Autopilot radar depth sounder NMA with ECDIS + LOLIcollision avoid feature, Sailmail, Pactor, Electric winches , hidraulic winches, Keels controled by computers , Diesel engines controled by chips, etc... is the future,,,, but real sailors still can save their butt in a Night Gale harbour aproach scenario with just a paper chart and visual references, i wonder how many of this electronics lovers can do the same
The romance of navigation is getting lost.......
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 09:22   #104
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
Electronic just as good huh?
The back up systems would still work. Some of the plotters are rated for a minute immersion at 1m, which is better than a paper chart.
Back up systems can be further waterproofed in Decor container or similar. It's hard to store charts in such containers because of the physical size. A leak in your chart locker can ruin a few charts before its noticed.
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 09:27   #105
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
The back up systems would still work. Some of the plotters are rated for a minute immersion at 1m, which is better than a paper chart.
Back up systems can be further waterproofed in Decor container or similar. It's hard to store charts in such containers because of the physical size. A leak in your chart locker can ruin a few charts before its noticed.
There is 100% waterproof charts in the market to...
__________________

__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
charts

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:07.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.