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Old 01-11-2012, 19:03   #916
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

I can do CN.

No, I haven't been sailing since the dawn of time, about three years now.

I use both because satellite signals and electronics fail (I make a living fixing electronics. All you folks that believe explicitly in them,... please continue. I can always use the work), but also because skies get cloudy.

So for me, when the stars aren't working, the GPS is. Usually the reverse is true as well. When nothing is working ....., well, you're cruising aren't you? S#it happens.
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Old 01-11-2012, 20:01   #917
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

My compass is an antique 5" card (7 1/2" overall) flat compass mounted in an equally as old bronze binnacle....it has an element of cool electronics just can't touch
amd to satisfy the techies.....a gps head and radar head are mounted discreetly under it
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Old 02-11-2012, 15:21   #918
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by frank_f View Post
I can do CN.

No, I haven't been sailing since the dawn of time, about three years now.

I use both because satellite signals and electronics fail (I make a living fixing electronics. All you folks that believe explicitly in them,... please continue. I can always use the work), but also because skies get cloudy.

So for me, when the stars aren't working, the GPS is. Usually the reverse is true as well. When nothing is working ....., well, you're cruising aren't you? S#it happens.
Nicely put.
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Old 02-11-2012, 15:28   #919
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Nicely put.
Totally agree, our GPS Antanae has a occasional glitch when it decides to stop sending info everything stops as it has now, because it's a sea talk instrument it brings everything else down at the same time NAVTEX and WIND PLOTTER the lot.

BUT this time it's stayed off and we are wintering and can have it fixed hopefully to last, keeps the tech's busy!

But at sea i have to revert to last known position and paper on!
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Old 02-11-2012, 20:43   #920
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

I stopped being a passenger at age 7 (45 year ago) I learned to sail, navigate, engine start.shut down, docking, anchoring, reefing, etc....my father was retired USN and wanted me to start at an early age. I grew up in a time before electronics were commonly used on pleasure boats on the Chesapeake surrounded by old salts. I embrace the new technology, but respect and hold onto methods and systems that come from a simpler time
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Old 03-11-2012, 00:37   #921
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
But at sea i have to revert to last known position and paper on!
$100 on a HH GPS would be money well spent IMHO.
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Old 03-11-2012, 00:46   #922
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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$100 on a HH GPS would be money we spent IMHO.
IMHO Even a couple would be money well spent.
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Old 03-11-2012, 00:51   #923
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

It is easy to build a robust and reliable GPS system.
I would suggest two fixed GPS units with their antennae in different locations. They can be set up so that if one fails the flick of switch will change over to the other one.
A HH in faraday cage and waterproof box with enough batteries completes the picture.

I think the above are minimum GPS (not electronic mapping) requirements for a long distance cruising boat.
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Old 03-11-2012, 00:58   #924
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
It is easy to build a robust and reliable GPS system.
I would suggest two fixed GPS units with their antennae in different locations. They can be set up so that if one fails the flick of switch will change over to the other one.
A HH in faraday cage and waterproof box with enough batteries completes the picture.

I think the above are minimum GPS (not electronic mapping) requirements for a long distance cruising boat.
I go with that, relying on one system using one arial is not good as i've just found.
We had intermittant loss of position, Seatalk Failure etc but it never lasted long, when this happens all is lost other than last position.

Three days ago it did it again when some serious weather was on it's way. It wasn't a concern as we are tied up now for winter doing projects on our recently acquired boat.

But it does bring home the stupidity of single integration, two systems albeit a smaller plotter with seperate aerial takes away the searching for a tech in a backwater.
Cheers Frank
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:12   #925
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
I go with that, relying on one system using one arial is not good as i've just found.
We had intermittant loss of position, Seatalk Failure etc but it never lasted long, when this happens all is lost other than last position.

Three days ago it did it again when some serious weather was on it's way. It wasn't a concern as we are tied up now for winter doing projects on our recently acquired boat.

But it does bring home the stupidity of single integration, two systems albeit a smaller plotter with seperate aerial takes away the searching for a tech in a backwater.
Cheers Frank
One nice thing about not having an "all in one system" each of my GPSs (one handheld, one fixed w/ antenna mounted to boom gallows) and the laptop (which will eventually have it's own GPS) all independently keep track of my course. On top of that if one component goes down the whole system doesn't down. I got my Ray Marine RL-72 radar w/18" radome for $125 from someone that wanted to upgrade to a color display Garmin w/built in GPS (it even came in the Garmin box).....a month later he wanted the box back so he could send his all in one unit back to the factory.
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Old 03-11-2012, 19:48   #926
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by frank_f View Post
I can do CN.

No, I haven't been sailing since the dawn of time, about three years now.

I use both because satellite signals and electronics fail (I make a living fixing electronics. All you folks that believe explicitly in them,... please continue. I can always use the work), but also because skies get cloudy.

So for me, when the stars aren't working, the GPS is. Usually the reverse is true as well. When nothing is working ....., well, you're cruising aren't you? S#it happens.

For me, it's a matter of making choices. I started sailing not five years ago, but four (I'm calendar-impaired!) -- and it's been about learning *useful* things -- for me. I don't have a bluewater boat, so coastal navigation skills make more sense than celestial. I'm sure it would be interesting, but I not only have everything about sailing to learn I can, but everything about boat maintenance to learn I can, and everything about diesel engines I can.

When there's a huge body of knowledge and skills to master, each person will make his or her own best choices.

It's been an action-packed four years, but I have focused on what is most useful for me. I do coastal cruising, and celestial navigation, while valuable for many, isn't #1 on my list. As I've indicated in other threads, as I go more and more far afield, the next thing on my list is stormy weather.
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Old 03-11-2012, 19:56   #927
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Question:

Does any chartplotting software make provision for assigning varying degrees of uncertainty to various inputs?

Say, the difference between bearings taken in rough conditions with a handbearing compass, as against taken in perfect conditions using the main compass?

Or estimates of course made good, when using the chartplotter to run a DR. Depending on conditions, and on who is steering, these obviously vary widely in reliability.

It would be nice to be able to assign angular or linear error zones, and to draw circles and ovals and triangles of uncertainty around resulting positions, and then carry those widths forward as appropriate.

This is very quick and easy on a paper chart, but I'd be interested to know how it's handled using state of the art chartplotters. ? ? ? ?

(To clarify: I'm not trying to make a case against chartplotters. I just want to be clear about any limitations. Every tool has limitations.

To hark back to the CAD analogy: I hardly ever revert to pencil sketches, but I do work hard to make sure I don't fall into the "false implications" trap, nor others, when I use CAD. The advantages outweigh the significant disadvantages, FOR ME, so it quickly became and has remained my main tool for design visualisation and representation)
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Old 03-11-2012, 20:19   #928
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Question:

Does any chartplotting software make provision for assigning varying degrees of uncertainty to various inputs?

Say, the difference between bearings taken in rough conditions with a handbearing compass, as against taken in perfect conditions using the main compass?

Or estimates of course made good, when using the chartplotter to run a DR. Depending on conditions, and on who is steering, these obviously vary widely in reliability.

It would be nice to be able to assign angular or linear error zones, and to draw circles and ovals and triangles of uncertainty around resulting positions, and then carry those widths forward as appropriate.

This is very quick and easy on a paper chart, but I'd be interested to know how it's handled using state of the art chartplotters. ? ? ? ?

(To clarify: I'm not trying to make a case against chartplotters. I just want to be clear about any limitations. Every tool has limitations.

To hark back to the CAD analogy: I hardly ever revert to pencil sketches, but I do work hard to make sure I don't fall into the "false implications" trap, nor others, when I use CAD. The advantages outweigh the significant disadvantages, FOR ME, so it quickly became and has remained my main tool for design visualisation and representation)
Most chart plotters take it for granted the source of the digital input is as accurate as digital sources are capable of and do not allow for variations.....ie they consider the input to be 100% accurate (you are where you tell it you are headed the direction you tell it you are traveling)...chart plotters do not look at where a boat is pointed, just the direction it travels.
Would you trust in a machine 100% that trusts in another machine 100% even though that machine may not be 100% accurate
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Old 03-11-2012, 20:19   #929
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Question:

Does any chartplotting software make provision for assigning varying degrees of uncertainty to various inputs?

Say, the difference between bearings taken in rough conditions with a handbearing compass, as against taken in perfect conditions using the main compass?

Or estimates of course made good, when using the chartplotter to run a DR. Depending on conditions, and on who is steering, these obviously vary widely in reliability.

It would be nice to be able to assign angular or linear error zones, and to draw circles and ovals and triangles of uncertainty around resulting positions, and then carry those widths forward as appropriate.

This is very quick and easy on a paper chart, but I'd be interested to know how it's handled using state of the art chartplotters. ? ? ? ?

(To clarify: I'm not trying to make a case against chartplotters. I just want to be clear about any limitations. Every tool has limitations.

To hark back to the CAD analogy: I hardly ever revert to pencil sketches, but I do work hard to make sure I don't fall into the "false implications" trap, nor others, when I use CAD. The advantages outweigh the significant disadvantages, FOR ME, so it quickly became and has remained my main tool for design visualisation and representation)

How much experience do you have using chart plotters?
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Old 03-11-2012, 21:07   #930
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Wolfenzee

thanks for that, I should have been clearer. I was talking about using a chartplotter (rather than a paper chart) to plot bearings and courses originating from human input, not from digital input.
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