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Old 14-10-2012, 02:00   #811
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
Guys, just go walk up and down the docks. Ask the people with chart plotters if they know how to calculate set and drift, and ask them to do it for you. Ask them the difference between variance and deviation. Hell, ask them if they even know about different datums and what that means. There are great skippers with chart plotters and electronic nav, but it also allows folks to think they don't need real navigational chops.
I think the lack of knowledge is a real problem. Skippers who use electronic charts should certainly have the traditional navigational skills.

GPS often gets the blame for the poor standard of navigational skills, while there is an element of truth in that I began sailing before the days of GPS and skills were pretty appalling then as well.

As a simple example, when I had only been sailing a few months I went on my first offshore race. The skipper announced I was to be the "navigator" I protested that I new nothing about yacht navigation, had never been offshore and never even sailed at night. The skipper explained that since I had done a lot of flying and new how to navigate light plane I was the best person for the job.

He was right.
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Old 14-10-2012, 02:41   #812
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Good point, and I think one pften missed is those with no navigational skills are the same ones who would have gone without the knowledge anyway, difference is the plotter at least ives them hope of getting there!
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Old 14-10-2012, 05:06   #813
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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True north and magnetic north is about 10 degrees difference,
Depending on where you are, of course. It varies by latitude and from year to year.

The magnetic field of the Earth is ever-shifting. Most of the time the difference is small, but over time it can add up.
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Old 14-10-2012, 05:53   #814
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Depending on where you are, of course. It varies by latitude and from year to year.

The magnetic field of the Earth is ever-shifting. Most of the time the difference is small, but over time it can add up.
Varies by longitude as well.

approx 18 E in the PNW annual change about 8' W. You probably have W variation in Florida.
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Old 14-10-2012, 07:44   #815
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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My backup is a black and white handheld (I had a colored one also, but it went belly up). It stinks as a chart plotter. I use it for two things: it will confirm my lat and long if my chartplotter fails, and its anchor alarm can be heard.
My backup is an old Magellan hh with only L/L, heading, bearing, no charting.

It REQUIRES a paper chart.

Best of both worlds, we have both and use both.

It's not either/or.
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Old 14-10-2012, 07:45   #816
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
Ah, what's that gadget called that you install under your chart table enabling you to use paper charts and a little mouse-like thingy for plotting positions, bearings etc....they even have a small boat version...and I'm too lazy to dig in my archives or go searching the web...

Yeoman?
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Old 14-10-2012, 07:51   #817
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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It REQUIRES a paper chart.
.
I am not sure why.
You can plot the lat and long from your handheld on any electronic chart. You can place a position cross just like you would on paper.

A paper or electronic chart would both be suitable as backup when using a basic HH GPS.
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Old 14-10-2012, 10:45   #818
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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I am not sure why.
You can plot the lat and long from your handheld on any electronic chart. You can place a position cross just like you would on paper.

A paper or electronic chart would both be suitable as backup when using a basic HH GPS.
I don't disagree. There seem to be three things here: GPS, electronic charts and L/L-only. I had figured that when the GPS went out, so did the electronic charts. Two out of three? Still in business.

I have a mini-chartplotter (hh Garmin GPSMap 76 Cx), so if it goes, so do my electronic charts, right?

My Magellan hh requires a paper chart for me to navigate, other than dr.
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Old 14-10-2012, 10:58   #819
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

I was talking to Lin Pardey about this matter at the wooden boat festival..she had been onboard a racing boat, the skipper wanted to leave the paper charts ashore. She pointed out the paper charts showed land topography and the electronic charts didn't... the topography of the islands affects the wind which was very important in racing.
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Old 14-10-2012, 11:48   #820
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I am not sure why.
You can plot the lat and long from your handheld on any electronic chart. You can place a position cross just like you would on paper.

A paper or electronic chart would both be suitable as backup when using a basic HH GPS.
Well, take Mexico as an example with it's notoriously incorrect charts. Off in longitude from two feet to two miles in either way. If you want to do something like three lines of positioning based off land sightings, you can't exactly put the triangle on the LCD screen and drag a pencil across.

I've learned and used way too many quality navigational techniques that require paper and pencil to ditch them.

I'm not a Luddite about it. I replaced my crap VHF with a Standard Horizon model with built in AIS receiver and wired it into the handheld GPS that is clipped nearby. All of that sits mounted below a radar display. I have a satellite phone, quad band cell with international voice and data, ssb, and two handheld vhf's.

I'm a believer in any tool offering a clear advantage over another. But seriously, (to me) the tiny advantage in convenience of electronic charts does not in anyway make up for their shortcomings.
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Old 14-10-2012, 12:40   #821
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
If you want to do something like three lines of positioning based off land sightings, you can't exactly put the triangle on the LCD screen and drag a pencil across.

I've learned and used way too many quality navigational techniques that require paper and pencil to ditch them.
It's not difficult to put "pencil" marks on an electronic chart.

The software will even instantly calculate the bearing of the line.
There is no need to ditch all those navigational techniques.

Even better as most electronic maps are at the helm you can do all this while maintaining situational awareness, or keeping an eye on the sails etc.

Here is an example of a 3 point fix on an electronic chart. Easy.
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Old 14-10-2012, 13:40   #822
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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I know and recognize your skills - that's why I guessed incomplete thought.

It's the internet and we are all a bit anal...
Thanx EX-Calif. It was late last night, Too much coffee. Just moved onboard and the continued inability to express myself properly so CF members can understand me...

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Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
True north and magnetic north is about 10 degrees difference,
It changes from year to year as the earth does the Watusi on it's Axis. And differs depending where you are

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I think the lack of knowledge is a real problem. Skippers who use electronic charts should certainly have the traditional navigational skills.

GPS often gets the blame for the poor standard of navigational skills, while there is an element of truth in that I began sailing before the days of GPS and skills were pretty appalling then as well.

As a simple example, when I had only been sailing a few months I went on my first offshore race. The skipper announced I was to be the "navigator" I protested that I new nothing about yacht navigation, had never been offshore and never even sailed at night. The skipper explained that since I had done a lot of flying and new how to navigate light plane I was the best person for the job.

He was right.
This is my gripe (you know I have many) about electronics and dependance on them. It not reduces but eliminates practical knowledge of how and why plotting works. I have nothing against plotters but the attitude of push a button and go can be dangerous at times.
So I guess my solution to this would be for everyone to take Navigation 101 and 201. Get a basic understanding of this ball we spin on at 18 miles per second. If nothing else you will look like an old salt/genius at the local cruising water hole...
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Old 14-10-2012, 18:09   #823
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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So I guess my solution to this would be for everyone to take Navigation 101 and 201. Get a basic understanding of this ball we spin on at 18 miles per second. If nothing else you will look like an old salt/genius at the local cruising water hole...
Amen to that.

Here's a taster of an RYA course that might be a good primer. I am not 100% thrilled with it as the navigation section is short and it mixes in other skills (necessary skills) besides navigation such as safety and anchoring.

A good nav course should probably take 3 days of classroom.

http://www.ryainteractive.org/file.p...0512/main.html
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Old 14-10-2012, 18:31   #824
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quite simply put even if paper charts are no longer necessary, the ability to use them as well as an understanding of how navigation works is still vital (these thought processes spill over into other applications in life). More than once I have seen people who considered themselves incapable of doing something because they no longer carried the mindset that allowed one to do for themselves (a side effect of our push button culture).
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Old 14-10-2012, 19:13   #825
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Unhappy Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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I copied this for you which explains it better than I can...
All information on a chart, including your own plotting, is related to TRUE North.

Thus all bearings on a chart are related to TRUE NORTH. Compasses point to MAGNETIC NORTH, which varies from True North by an error called VARIATION.
Compasses also are subject to their own errors; this is called DEVIATION.
COMPASS BEARING = TRUE BEARING +/- MAGNETIC VARIATION +/- COMPASS DEVIATION
Magnetic Variation is due to the differing positions of the Geographic North Pole and the Magnetic North Pole. The boat's compass and a hand bearing compass point to the Magnetic Pole, but all bearings on charts are related to the Geographic Pole (True North).
I was just being facious. Commercial vessels in Australia are required to carry deviation Cards and have compass swung professionally. All private vessels generally just use their chartplotters.
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