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Old 07-07-2012, 16:49   #61
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by bobconnie View Post
I just can't believe anyone would go to sea with only electronic charting!! how can you believe that all of what your carrying would not go out if the GPS systems went down !! as it has and which it will again !! As long as I have room I will carry the charts Ive carried since the 50s !!Of course I have new ones also, LOL. Yes we have charting on the wifes puter, and have had for a long time ! but all I use it for is daily cks against my navigation on paper with a hand held, with a back up sexton! worked for me for a LONG time and continue to work for as long as I sail anyway !!Ive asked folks who say this a question, do you only carry one hammer and one screwdriver?? get real !! and be safe for sure !!

Did you miss the part where he has six different way to access charts electronically? I don't agree with it, but he's not being cavalier about it.
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Old 07-07-2012, 16:49   #62
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Can you easily plot your visuals on to a chart plotter, positioning yourself to relative observations (I'm not an expert "electronic" pilot/navigator)?
I donít need to know my exact actual position (lat/long) on the planet; so much as my position, relative to geographic features.
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Old 07-07-2012, 17:06   #63
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Can you easily plot your visuals on to a chart plotter, positioning yourself to relative observations (I'm not an expert "electronic" pilot/navigator)?
I donít need to know my exact actual position (lat/long) on the planet; so much as my position, relative to geographic features.

Good Question Gord!
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Old 07-07-2012, 17:48   #64
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

How do you keep track of Your position if the sats. happen to go down?
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Old 07-07-2012, 19:47   #65
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Can you easily plot your visuals on to a chart plotter, positioning yourself to relative observations (I'm not an expert "electronic" pilot/navigator)?
I donít need to know my exact actual position (lat/long) on the planet; so much as my position, relative to geographic features.

But you're exact lat/long will give you where you relative to visuals. I just do NOT get the big deal over using electronics.
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Old 07-07-2012, 19:48   #66
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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How do you keep track of Your position if the sats. happen to go down?
How do you keep track of your position if all the land suddenly disappears?

I mean, if we're going to make suppositions, why not make all of them?
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Old 07-07-2012, 20:06   #67
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Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Do you never drive alone?

Alone, one has to pull over to look at a paper map. No one except you said it's "necessary" for a car. It is a tremendous convenience. If you're opposed to that, don't get one.
Oh I use a GPS....but life goes on without one also. Its called directions. I use technology, it doesn't control me.
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Old 07-07-2012, 20:21   #68
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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He has multiple backups, and it's unlikely they would all be plugged in at the same time. Why waste the battery power?

While the backups may not be damaged by lightening, the electrical system may no longer work or provide reliable electric power. Electronics sometimes get funky with irregular voltage.
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Old 07-07-2012, 20:28   #69
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Oh I use a GPS....but life goes on without one also. Its called directions. I use technology, it doesn't control me.

Who here lets technology control them???
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Old 07-07-2012, 20:39   #70
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

is it still a legal requirement for commercial shipping to have charts? I reckon when the big boys chuck 'em i might agree with them not being necessary but i'll still use charts 'cos i love 'em.
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Old 07-07-2012, 20:52   #71
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Who here lets technology control them???

I certainly don't let technology control me nor do I think most on this thread do. Even those who don't use paper charts appear to have put some thought into what they are doing. Unfortunately I am pretty sure that most of us do know people who let it control them even if it is unintentional.

I feel that GPS should be used to confirm what I have plotted and not as a primary method of plotting. This creates a much better situational awareness. I was in the Army for many years have have seen what happens when people rely too much on technology. If it can go wrong, it will and it will usually at the worst possible time. I have seen people drive into kill zones because they were so busy watching their waypoints and weren't paying enough attention to the burning vehicles around them (That's a good clue that something bad is happening in that area). Yes, this is an extreme example but it applies to us too.

Airbus makes some of the most technologically advanced aircraft around but there have been a number of crashes due to this automation. The pilots didn't have enough situational awareness. The most recent example is the Air France crash off of Brazil. Conversely, most people who drive carry a spare yet the odds of them needing one are probably lower than the odds of having a glitch.

I was in the technology business for ten years and I love technology. I do however recognize that it is a tool. If it is used to supplement the greatest tool (the brain) then it is good. If it is used as a crutch or to let us be lazy, then there will likely be a problem at some point. Electonic navigation is great but if there is a problem, electronic backups can take time to boot up, plug in, etc. They may also not work for various reasons. Even if they do, they may not have the plots on them that you worked out earlier. A paper chart can be ready almost immediately (assuming you didn't bury it in some locker) and should be readily available.
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Old 07-07-2012, 20:59   #72
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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is it still a legal requirement for commercial shipping to have charts? I reckon when the big boys chuck 'em i might agree with them not being necessary but i'll still use charts 'cos i love 'em.

Excellent question. I don't know but I can say that based upon what little I have seen of them, the very large vessels use something different than the average cruiser. For one thing, their screens seemed to be much larger than the largest unit I've ever seen on a sloop, ketch, etc. The screen seemed to be as large as a chart providing the same situational awareness at a glance. They also seemed to have more sophistication and redundancy. I would like to hear from someone who is using those systems.
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Old 07-07-2012, 21:00   #73
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY View Post
While the backups may not be damaged by lightening, the electrical system may no longer work or provide reliable electric power. Electronics sometimes get funky with irregular voltage.

Some of these "useless gadgets" actually run on batteries.
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Old 07-07-2012, 21:07   #74
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY View Post
I certainly don't let technology control me nor do I think most on this thread do. Even those who don't use paper charts appear to have put some thought into what they are doing. Unfortunately I am pretty sure that most of us do know people who let it control them even if it is unintentional.

I feel that GPS should be used to confirm what I have plotted and not as a primary method of plotting. This creates a much better situational awareness. I was in the Army for many years have have seen what happens when people rely too much on technology. If it can go wrong, it will and it will usually at the worst possible time. I have seen people drive into kill zones because they were so busy watching their waypoints and weren't paying enough attention to the burning vehicles around them (That's a good clue that something bad is happening in that area). Yes, this is an extreme example but it applies to us too.

Airbus makes some of the most technologically advanced aircraft around but there have been a number of crashes due to this automation. The pilots didn't have enough situational awareness. The most recent example is the Air France crash off of Brazil. Conversely, most people who drive carry a spare yet the odds of them needing one are probably lower than the odds of having a glitch.

I was in the technology business for ten years and I love technology. I do however recognize that it is a tool. If it is used to supplement the greatest tool (the brain) then it is good. If it is used as a crutch or to let us be lazy, then there will likely be a problem at some point. Electonic navigation is great but if there is a problem, electronic backups can take time to boot up, plug in, etc. They may also not work for various reasons. Even if they do, they may not have the plots on them that you worked out earlier. A paper chart can be ready almost immediately (assuming you didn't bury it in some locker) and should be readily available.

"I certainly don't let technology control me nor do I think most on this thread do. Even those who don't use paper charts appear to have put some thought into what they are doing. Unfortunately I am pretty sure that most of us do know people who let it control them even if it is unintentional."


I know a guy who put his sailboat on autopilot and then went to sit by the companionway while his wife was below. His autopilot over-reacted to a wave -- they can do that -- just has he was sailing MUCH too close to me -- he had a LOT of other water (he was overtaking, by the way) and went right across the stern of my boat. He flipped the dinghy we were towing, chewed up the plastic sleeve over my split backstay (thank goodness for the sleeve; you can see where the anchor rolled off it instead of catching the wire) an left his bottom paint across my stern -- not to mentioning he completely terrorized the friend of mine who was at the wheel at the time. We were very close hauled. If she'd fallen off he would have hit my boat much worse. If she'd pointed up we would have luffed and slowed down and he would have hit us worse. There was nothing we could do.

Incredibly, two weeks later I was leaving a marina. My friend poked me and pointed behind us. There was the same guy, JUST outside the channel markers, already on autopilot in a very crowded boating area. He was standing on his cabin top, bent over and untangling lines (can't do that from behind the wheel, doncha know ...) -- and gaining on us, this time overtaking us under engine power. We just steered away and he plowed right through where we had just been. He would have done AGAIN if we hadn't been paying attention!

It's not just electronics that can be used badly, but I think this guy would be just as dangerous "sailing" the boat himself.
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Old 07-07-2012, 21:14   #75
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
How do you keep track of your position if all the land suddenly disappears?

I mean, if we're going to make suppositions, why not make all of them?

I understand the thought about suppositions but it is more likely that the electronics will fail than the satellites, but the result is the same. A paper chart is an inexpensive and reliable backup that should be ready right away. The Bond movie Tomorrow Never Dies had the arch-villain alter satellite signals. Lest anyone think this is fantasy from Hollywood, the British MOD (Ministry of Defense) announced that during a recent exercise GPS may be unavailable or worse; IT MAY PROVIDE FALSE SIGNALS! Iran recently downed a U.S. drone supposedly by doing the same thing. A professor at the University of Texas was able to do the same thing and altered the flight paths of drones. Admittedly this hasn't had much, if any, effect on yachstmen but who knows what will happen down the road. Who would have thought two years ago that phones could get a virus but anything that needs software downloaded can get it now. So too GPS navigation can be affected in the future. I am not a naysayer. I am just pointing out that things can fail and it is good to have a readily available and reliable backup.
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