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Old 08-10-2012, 06:54   #721
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

i care not how folks gain experience. many find it helpful to receive info from those who have already sailed a lot more than they have. others become defensive of their own insecurities and lash out verbally against the ones who have experience.
is your own choice what to do and how to do it---but when you bad someone who is only trying to smooth waters for the less experienced, then you have made a bed you and you alone need to sleep in.
is good you have ability to afford new and better toys. aint the toys that will guide and save you--is your own knowledge and experience, coordination and flexibility.
if you end up sailing around the world before i get to gulf coast, more the better.
not everyone will have back up hand held gps, nor do all of us wish we had those toys.
WHEN stuff hits fan, i DO have paper to make sure my course is readable despite wet or wild rides. i know wet happens. even in gulf of mexico wet happens. seas break over transoms and water gets everywhere in cockpit, e ven with small confused seas in darkness.
. is good to have a guaranteed backup system--another gps isnt always the way to go -- they dislike water.
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Old 08-10-2012, 07:28   #722
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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i care not how folks gain experience. many find it helpful to receive info from those who have already sailed a lot more than they have.

I will never be able to pay back all the wonderful help I have received.


others become defensive of their own insecurities and lash out verbally against the ones who have experience.

And some people think that because in their opinion they have more "experience," their word should be taken as Gospel, no questions asked. I have learned to listen to everyone and to ask questions. Unfortunately, some people interpret being asked questioned as being challenged, or even as "lashing out verbally."

is your own choice what to do and how to do it---but when you bad someone who is only trying to smooth waters for the less experienced, then you have made a bed you and you alone need to sleep in.

But sometimes those people give out inaccurate information, and sometimes they don't like it if that becomes obvious.



is good you have ability to afford new and better toys.

I'm confused. Do you or do you not have a chartplotter? Is that having the newest toys on the block? I wasn't aware of that. There's that money thing again. I think it's kind of funny that you think I have a lot of money.


aint the toys that will guide and save you--is your own knowledge and experience, coordination and flexibility.

Are you sure? And are you ABSOLUTELY certain that there is nothing to be gained by combining those "toys" with everything else? 'Cuz I could swear I have learned important things by comparing my "toy" to my paper chart, and more than once.


if you end up sailing around the world before i get to gulf coast, more the better.

But you just said yesterday that you sailed here for a year, loved it, enjoyed the "confused waters" (they really are interesting). went across the Gulf, apparently multiple times but never got caught in a thunderstorm there, etc. Lots of details. So which is true?

not everyone will have back up hand held gps, nor do all of us wish we had those toys.

And what did I say? That I happen to have one, but I'm not going to criticize someone else for not having that. Remember that? I just happened to have a back up and found what I think is a really good use for it.

WHEN stuff hits fan, i DO have paper to make sure my course is readable despite wet or wild rides.

So do I. I've said that over and over.


i know wet happens. even in gulf of mexico wet happens. seas break over transoms and water gets everywhere in cockpit, e ven with small confused seas in darkness.

Wet happens -- that would make a GREAT sailing t-shirt!

. is good to have a guaranteed backup system--another gps isnt always the way to go -- they dislike water.

"the way?" As in "the only way?" I listed a whole bunch of backup plans, and seriously downplayed the usefulness of a handheld gps as a backup. Talk about NOT getting the big picture ...

But if you don't have decades of experience, the handheld can give you your lat and long. That's one way it can help teach, by the way ... it's a good way to check whether your dead reckoning is acceptably accurate or not.

I have NEVER been an advocate of over-reliance on chart-plotters. I have actively argued against that.



I will say that when someone tells me the middle of the Gulf of Mexico doesn't have thunderstorms, I know that's information I need to question carefully. Since I live here, I look at the Gulf of Mexico radar often. I did last night around 10PM when I read that statement, and there was a lot of weather out there last night. I've seen it many other times, of course. I included a screen shot of the radar image but somehow the post disappeared into the ozone.

If it will go through this time, the weather moving into the "big bend" of Florida was out in the middle of the Gulf last night.

Nope, couldn't get it to drop in. Sorry.

It's particularly bad when a strong front comes through and causes the local winds to race up the front SW to NE. When those four football players went into the water and only one survived, they either didn't know or ignored the fact that a strong front was moving south (among multiple mistakes)

I listen to everyone, Zee, but I also follow Judge Judy's advice: "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining." T-storms can occur anywhere in the Gulf -- not just along the coast.
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Old 08-10-2012, 07:38   #723
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

there are many ways to do everything---i give no orders--i state what works for me and what my experience has been with whatever i am 'splaining. if you choose to attend to that info, fine, if not- fine--i care not..
many aspects of sailing are objective and many are subjective. is up to the recipient of the info to deal with it in their own fashion.
i care not. i live as i see fit, and i expect others to do likewise.(as they see fit..)
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Old 08-10-2012, 07:49   #724
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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there are many ways to do everything---i give no orders--i state what works for me and what my experience has been with whatever i am 'splaining. if you choose to attend to that info, fine, if not- fine--i care not..
many aspects of sailing are objective and many are subjective. is up to the recipient of the info to deal with it in their own fashion.
i care not. i live as i see fit, and i expect others to do likewise.(as they see fit..)

I attend to everything you -- and everyone here -- and everyone I know in real life -- say.

But if someone's comments start to smell like a dairy farm, I take that into consideration also. That doesn't happen much online, but I've heard a lot of questionable things in real life.

Example -- a retired naval architect who has been cruising and living aboard for decades got a new engine about a year before I had to. He told me -- really pushed it, actually, that I should run the engine at about 2800 RPM. Interestingly, this same fellow tells people he's not an expert on engines and won't work on them for others.

However, the Yanmar certified technician who installed the engine gave me very different advice.

Fast forward about a year. The retired NA has thrown a rod. His practically brand-new engine has to be replaced. The Yanmar mechanic I used is evaluating his engine, and he explains to him that he ran the engine at RPMs that were WAY below optimal for his engine and that this contributed materially to the damage.

He's a retired NA, and he's given me lots of good advice, but it was important -- CRUCIAL -- that I consider whether or not he was giving me good advice that time.

And, he wasn't the only well-seasoned sailor to say essentially what he said. Lots of people gave me the same bad advice.

No one knows everything.
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Old 08-10-2012, 08:01   #725
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

This was a Yanmar diesel? And the Yanmar techie says that 2800 RPM was "way below Optimal?"

Really?

Optimal RPMs for almost all diesels are around 2000. 2800 is pretty high. I have a Yanmar - Optimal range 1800 - 2200.

If you feel 2800 RPM is "WAY below optimal" What do you run yours at?

Sorry, I don't buy it. Even if it is a gasoline engine, 2800 is not "WAY below Optimal"


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Old 08-10-2012, 08:24   #726
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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This was a Yanmar diesel? And the Yanmar techie says that 2800 RPM was "way below Optimal?"

Really?

Optimal RPMs for almost all diesels are around 2000. 2800 is pretty high. I have a Yanmar - Optimal range 1800 - 2200.

If you feel 2800 RPM is "WAY below optimal" What do you run yours at?

Sorry, I don't buy it. Even if it is a gasoline engine, 2800 is not "WAY below Optimal"



No, the 2800 wasn't enough to tank an engine in a short period of time. I didn't want to write a novel, so I didn't explain it all. In addition, he was running the engine at idle for several hours a day when we had several cloudy days in a row and his solar panels didn't fully charge his batteries.

He installed the engine himself and neglected to install a loop, and Yanmar thinks that because the engine went south in a storm and in shallow rough water, that water backed up and got up to the pistons. Oops.
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Old 08-10-2012, 10:00   #727
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Might up your credibility around here if you told that story correctly. 2800 RPM is NOT "way below optimal". Might be above optimal, not below. Running a diesel in idle for afew days also will not kill it. Failure to put in a proper cooling loop (if that is what you are referring to) would definitely screw the pooch.

I won't use the qoute, but you did mention that when advice( in this an illustrative story) begins to smell like a dairy farm, it's time for the bullshit meter to kick in.

Your story smells like a huge dairy farm.


Jus' sayin'
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Old 08-10-2012, 10:50   #728
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Might up your credibility around here if you told that story correctly. 2800 RPM is NOT "way below optimal". Might be above optimal, not below. Running a diesel in idle for afew days also will not kill it. Failure to put in a proper cooling loop (if that is what you are referring to) would definitely screw the pooch.

I won't use the qoute, but you did mention that when advice( in this an illustrative story) begins to smell like a dairy farm, it's time for the bullshit meter to kick in.

Your story smells like a huge dairy farm.


Jus' sayin'

So maybe it wasn't "well" below, and you're going to turn the whole story into a dairy farm over one word. You just want to go there, but that's your burden, not mine.
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:36   #729
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Oh I'm not burdened by it. But you need to get your so-called "facts" to correspond with reality. You wrote that the techie had said 2800 RPM was " WAY below optimal"

2800 RPM is not below optimal, might be above it, but NOT below it. Then the story becomes something about an unistalled loop, causing the engine to throw a rod, due to water having made its way into the piston chamber.

Sorry Raku, but you don't know what you are talking about. That's why my bullshit indicator is way off the chart.

Personall, I don't care much, but a number of newbie DO read these posts and they might actually think you know whereof you speak. And take it seriously.

That would be, to put it mildly, unfortunate.


Course, that's just one man's (who happens to have a motormans certificate) opinion
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:49   #730
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessaryor

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Oh I'm not burdened by it. But you need to get your so-called "facts" to correspond with reality. You wrote that the techie had said 2800 RPM was " WAY below optimal"

2800 RPM is not below optimal, might be above it, but NOT below it. Then the story becomes something about an unistalled loop, causing the engine to throw a rod, due to water having made its way into the piston chamber.

Sorry Raku, but you don't know what you are talking about. That's why my bullshit indicator is way off the chart.

Personall, I don't care much, but a number of newbie DO read these posts and they might actually think you know whereof you speak. And take it seriously.

That would be, to put it mildly, unfortunate.


Course, that's just one man's (who happens to have a motormans certificate) opinion
Sorry but he was correct. A Yanmar is meant to be run continually at I believe 80-90% of wide open throttle, in other words maybe 2900-3000 rpm. This is well known knowledge with the Yanmar tech's. Worst thing you can do is let it idle for hours at a time, also well known.
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Old 08-10-2012, 13:09   #731
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Which Yanmar?

For prolonged running, a pleasure boat engine a good operating speed is around 85% of maximum continuous rated RPM (see the engine data plate)
assuming the propeller size is correct and the engine can reach maximum rpm).
See this list for approximate rpm:

GM - 4JH - 3/4JH2 series 2900rpm

YM series Depending on WOT rpm 2600-2900rpm

4LH and 6LY series 2650rpm

6LP and 3/4JH3 series 3000rpm

3/4JH4 series 2400rpm

6CX series 2200rpm

Yanmar Marine Engine Help
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Old 08-10-2012, 13:20   #732
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Which Yanmar?

For prolonged running, a pleasure boat engine a good operating speed is around 85% of maximum continuous rated RPM (see the engine data plate)
assuming the propeller size is correct and the engine can reach maximum rpm).
See this list for approximate rpm:

GM - 4JH - 3/4JH2 series 2900rpm

YM series Depending on WOT rpm 2600-2900rpm

4LH and 6LY series 2650rpm

6LP and 3/4JH3 series 3000rpm

3/4JH4 series 2400rpm

6CX series 2200rpm

Yanmar Marine Engine Help
I was basing the rpm on the 2gm and 3 GM models which have a wot of 3500-3600.
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Old 08-10-2012, 14:01   #733
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
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Oh I'm not burdened by it. But you need to get your so-called "facts" to correspond with reality. You wrote that the techie had said 2800 RPM was " WAY below optimal"

2800 RPM is not below optimal, might be above it, but NOT below it. Then the story becomes something about an unistalled loop, causing the engine to throw a rod, due to water having made its way into the piston chamber.

Sorry Raku, but you don't know what you are talking about. That's why my bullshit indicator is way off the chart.

Personall, I don't care much, but a number of newbie DO read these posts and they might actually think you know whereof you speak. And take it seriously.

That would be, to put it mildly, unfortunate.


Course, that's just one man's (who happens to have a motormans certificate) opinion

Yes, Carsten. I said one word you didn't like, and now you will have a pony to ride.
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Old 08-10-2012, 14:02   #734
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessaryor

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Sorry but he was correct. A Yanmar is meant to be run continually at I believe 80-90% of wide open throttle, in other words maybe 2900-3000 rpm. This is well known knowledge with the Yanmar tech's. Worst thing you can do is let it idle for hours at a time, also well known.

Actually -- go back and read his posts if you care to -- he said a lot lower than 3000. But that's OK. He doesn't have to see his mistake. He has mine. He's a lucky soul.
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Old 08-10-2012, 17:31   #735
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post

Fast forward about a year. The retired NA has thrown a rod. His practically brand-new engine has to be replaced. The Yanmar mechanic I used is evaluating his engine, and he explains to him that he ran the engine at RPMs that were WAY below optimal for his engine and that this contributed materially to the damage.
I am going to guess that he didn't "throw a rod." Throwing a rod is when the rod cap comes undone from the crankshaft journal. This is extremely rare. It can happen by the nuts backing off (almost impossible if torqued properly at assembly) or rare cases when the bearing fails over time due to lack of lubrication - symptom is a loud knocking sound for quite a while before parts fail.

I guess from the lack of vented loop he had a hydraulic lock and bent a connecting rod. Different failure mode. Neither one however comes from idling too long or running at 80% of WOT for extended periods.
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