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Old 27-09-2012, 04:55   #706
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
Many still do. Those that don't have determined that they are extremely unlikely to experience electronic failure or be hit by rough seas :-)

Bill
They carry runway charts with approaches, very different. Lightening strikes are still very much a risk as is engine failure.

I like paper charts, but use electronics aswell. I find the debate a bit like the same ones used against GPS versus a sextant, often concerns are raised relating to accuracy, yet a sextant is fine... Someone will know the actual figures but roughly something like a gps with 5 metres, sextant with in 5km's
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Old 27-09-2012, 12:31   #707
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

It also depends on what flight rules one is operating under--in most VFR and IFR situations an FFA approved electronic chart system may be used. In some other instances, paper charts are required for controlled visual flight rules. Most pilots also carry paper approach plates (charts).
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Old 08-10-2012, 02:56   #708
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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recently I tried to use the GPS in my pone to get to a golf course. No where near close.
It can be quite tragic. I was in northern Arizona when 11 Swiss tourists left the asphalt in their rental van. They left the highway to travel a dirt road which became a 2 wheel track which became a animal track. Stuck in the deep sand one of the men decided to hike out the 15 miles back to the highway. He never made it. The others stayed with the van and it was determined they all expired due to severe dehydration. The GPS showed the path they were on was a road that connected with another highway. Problem is the GPS didn't show the deep canyon (Colorado River) between them and that highway. A friend of mine flew SAR on that.

Another example, a father and son became very lost in the Oregon forest while driving. The father didn't make it and the son was severely dehydrated.

Of course, there is also position error introduced when misidentifying a waypoint.
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:00   #709
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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It also depends on what flight rules one is operating under--in most VFR and IFR situations an FFA approved electronic chart system may be used. In some other instances, paper charts are required for controlled visual flight rules. Most pilots also carry paper approach plates (charts).
In the USA charts are not required for VFR flight. There actually is no regulation regarding charts on aircraft smaller than "large turbofan" aircraft (larger than 12,500 lbs). Of course 14CFR91.103 will get the pilot without charts if he flies "not in the vicinity of an airport".

"If a pilot is involved in an enforcement investigation and there is evidence that the use of an out-of-date chart, no chart, or an out-of-date database contributed to the condition that brought on the enforcement investigation, then that information could be used in any enforcement action that might be taken." That is taken from the FAA FAQ page.
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:20   #710
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Quick question for those in the know, how long ago did aircraft stop using paper charts/maps?
Late 2011 the FAA started to allow the airlines to have e-charts only (Electronic Flight Bags, or EFB).
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:25   #711
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Maybe I've missed it but it hasn't been mentioned that ded reckoning can be used in conjunction with electronic nav. In this way it is still possible to derive accurate position during periods of corrupted signal, or if celestial nav, cloudy days. I follow along (finger on the chart) to enhance situational awareness. As in flight, there are phases of passage making when accurate position is more critical.
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Old 08-10-2012, 05:39   #712
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

what happens if the U,S,A, shuts off the down link fun for all,????????????????????????????????????????
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Old 08-10-2012, 05:58   #713
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

there is another problem no one has mentioned--as a cruiser out in the cruising world, i have had charts stolen from me--i know souls who have had gps stolen. if your gps is stolen and you havent the funding nor location factor for delivery, how ye gonna get around when you find yourself without any nav info????
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Old 08-10-2012, 06:03   #714
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Zeehag - keep sailing towards the setting sun (west for those that don't know). Eventually you'll hit land.
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Old 08-10-2012, 06:07   #715
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Zeehag - keep sailing towards the setting sun (west for those that don't know). Eventually you'll hit land.

lol i have both charts and gps with chart chips--i am fine, --what i am saying is not to become complacent about your belongings--they can disappear when you provision, unfortunately--so is best to be prepared....
redundancy is good with engines and nav info. doesnt hurt to have extra sails also---
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Old 08-10-2012, 06:16   #716
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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there is another problem no one has mentioned--as a cruiser out in the cruising world, i have had charts stolen from me--i know souls who have had gps stolen. if your gps is stolen and you havent the funding nor location factor for delivery, how ye gonna get around when you find yourself without any nav info????

You use your backup gps, or you use your charts, You consult your log so you know where you've been and how fast you've been traveling, if you can see land you use dead reckoning. You use your compass. If you have the skills, you use a sextant. Surely you know whether you need to be moving south or northwest ...

Smart people use all those things along with their chartplotters anyway, and have their current course marked on their chart.

Paper charts will never be unnecessary for me. I want and need the big picture as well as the details.
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Old 08-10-2012, 06:23   #717
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

the big picture is in the paper charts.
not all of us have back up everything --omg we are derelicts!!! and living within our incomes, meager as they are.
when you cruise long distances and into other countries, stuff happens. if you dont have backup for the electronic items, then you are not intelligent. you can have all the electronic bs you want--but the paper BIG PICTURE wont be replaced by an elecronic gizmo--where do you think the info for the chartplotter and gps comes from????? is always good to be ready for any kind of emergency--stuff happens.
perhaps if and when you cruise to other places than floriduh, you may see a use for paper charts.....catastrophic electrical issues on board, gps satellite failure(can happen!! is government) and other problems....
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Old 08-10-2012, 06:35   #718
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

I still plot on paper despite having the chartplotter. I like paper charts and the doodles and information which I see, and which evokes strong memories, often a few years down the road.

My first international voyage through South East Asia was accomplished using an atlas, an old portable transistor radio with ferrite rod ariel, a list of AM radio stations and their broadcast frequencies (Then used the radio as an RDF), a new fangled depth sounder (remember the old spinning disc with a pulsing red light), a sextant, a through hull water wheel analogue log and the sort of guts and naivety which comes with all youth, freshly released from the family home.

Although paper charts are going the same way as horse whips and sextants, it is in my blood and I still like to see the pencil line advancing between cocked hats along the route between departure point and destination.

There is nothing romantic about GPS.
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Old 08-10-2012, 06:41   #719
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

those carrying insurance might consider the fact that once wet, gps does nothing, but charts keep on working.....and can be your salvation when insurance doesnt want to pay claim due to improper navigation....
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Old 08-10-2012, 06:41   #720
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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the big picture is in the paper charts.

Yes it is. I would not sail in new waters wthout paper charts.

not all of us have back up everything --omg we are derelicts!!!

No. Only reason I have a backup is that I started out with a handheld and it still works. Now that I've seen its value I personally would always have one, but I would never say someone was derelict for not making that choice. I could be wrong but I don't think I've heard anyone say that. But it is an option if one's chartplotter is stolen (unless the backup is also stolen of course!) As I said in another thread, my handheld is valuable if the only thing I ever used it for was an anchor drag warning. With it, I can sleep peacefully at anchor.

and living within our incomes, meager as they are.

I didn't see anyone share their income here, but if you have made an assumption that I am well off you have miscalculated.


when you cruise long distances and into other countries, stuff happens. if you dont have backup for the electronic items, then you are not intelligent. you can have all the electronic bs you want--but the paper BIG PICTURE wont be replaced by an elecronic gizmo--where do you think the info for the chartplotter and gps comes from????? is always good to be ready for any kind of emergency--stuff happens.


perhaps if and when you cruise to other places than floriduh, you may see a use for paper charts.....

I don't understand this comment. I JUST SAID that I will always have paper charts.


catastrophic electrical issues on board, gps satellite failure(can happen!! is government) and other problems....
I *personally* think the government is unlikely to turn off the satellites. According to my handheld I am typically getting signals from 6 - 8 satellites, so one satellite going down would probably not result in a crisis of navigation -- but then neither would having the chartplotter fail or be stolen.

I may cruise beyond Florida some day. Every time I go out I expand my knowledge and experience in ways I can name. I don't have decades of experience, and I didn't take up sailing until I was in my 60's, so I may not get to that point, but I will take -- and enjoy -- as much as I can, for as long as I can. My next big adventure will be sailing the entire length of the Keys. Not a big deal to you; a very big deal to me (not scary, but a big deal). It will include crossing open water. If you think I should be out sailing around the world before I have made a trip like that, then ... well ... I will listen politely but might not follow the advice offered.
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