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Old 25-08-2012, 18:50   #631
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I have 3 GPS systems on my boat..I use MaxSea TimeZero and C-Map charts on a cockpit chartplotter
BUT I am always conscious of "what if"

Wars don't shut off GPS?..really ? in the 1st "gulf War" the US introduced errors into the GPS positioning. Clinton later passed some legislation that was to prevent that happening again...but hey all's fair in love and war and i don't trust any of those buggers.
Where does one buy a navigator that uses the Russian system ?
Is Galileo up and running ?

What if your batteries are flat, your engine won't start, your wind generator and solar panels are destroyed in a gale / knockdown ? how does your i thingy work then...let alone your GPS and nav electronics.

This is not the same as "not driving a car"..and no I generally don't use lifts (elevators) unless the floor I need to go to is more than about 4 or 5 ...but then in our part of the world we are not so advanced that we have that many multi-multi story buildings

It's about what if...




Let's nail some of this down

Wars don't shut off gps. , we already know this. See 1st gulf, see2nd gulf see afghanistan. Etc. the military need it too much bad the world relies on it too much. The Russian system is active, the Chineese are catching up fast and the Europeans will eventually stop squabbling over where the control centre is to located and establish Galileo.

If the war is global enough to take out GNSS systems the last thing you'll be worried about is your location on the ocean !!

Garmin has just released a dual gps/ glonass receiver , so has onwa ,many others in the pipeline.

You can postulate all sorts of failure modes., your keel could also fall off, but I don't see you carrying a spare one. The fact is in extremis, assuming all sorts of woe and calamity. You " could" loose gos positioning. S O what, the sun always sets in the west. Let's knock the ridiculous notion that if you use gps you suddenly loose the ability to think. the fact is at the extreme the outcome is simple, you die, several do each year, but in general these extreme failure modes are very few and far between. Simple backup precautions prevent most from happening. The last boat I was on had 6 independent gps location devices in itb( between the crew, iPads, iPhones, Garmins , plotters etc)

At the end of the day if you carried your " what if" argument to its conclusions we'd never sail anywhere as a boat is full of "single points of failure".


Note , not in any of my posts would you find me arguing against paper charts. , but I recognise the supremacy and dominance of electronic charting and position fixing. It's is and becoming completely so, the norm.
Please keep it real , leave the fear Mongering to the politicians

Dave
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Old 25-08-2012, 18:51   #632
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Then why don't a bunch of you Electric Heads sell me those old un-nessary paper charts ?? just askin and still buyin !! LOL
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Old 25-08-2012, 18:59   #633
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
Good luck with the tow, cannot see the pictures for some reason, must be to do with the Fleet 77 broadband connection.
Is it a dry tow, I really dont like towing jack ups.
Unfortunately not Nigel, there will be a maintenance crew of 12 on the rig (can't be wasting valuable downtime lol) but we will have another vessel with us should the unthinkable happen....

And i much prefer towing semi-subs....
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Old 25-08-2012, 19:05   #634
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Let's nail some of this down
Great idea Dave - Unfortunately being CF nailing stuff down is like pushing rope...

However let's try one.

Position is a latitude and longitude coordinate. Position is derived from Celestial Navigation methods, Bearing deduction or from a GPS - Position has absolutely nothing to do with charts!

Charts - Charts are pictoral representations of Earth surface features. Because the Earth is (almost) round and paper is flat there are several "projections" used to represent a round object on flat paper.

Position (once derived) can be plotted on a chart using a coordinate measuring system which may be different based on the "flat" projection used.

An electronic chart is an electronic pictoral of the Earth surface. Position can be plotted on a paper chart or an electronic chart.

Errors in position can result from bad measurements, inaccurate "transfer" of coordinates to projections or by using an incorrect datum in the case of GPS coordinates.

A chartplotter provides an electronic chart projection and automatically locates position based on GPS coordinates fed from a GPS. If the GPS function is "turned off" one can derive position from Celestial Navigation or from bearing reduction and locate losition on an electronic chart.

In this case the only difference between a paper chart and an electronic chart (of the same revision) is that the electronic chart is unavailable when the power goes out and the paper chart is unavailable if it blows overboard or catches fire.

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Old 25-08-2012, 19:08   #635
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Let's nail some of this down

Wars don't shut off gps. , we already know this. See 1st gulf, see2nd gulf see afghanistan. Etc. the military need it too much bad the world relies on it too much. The Russian system is active, the Chineese are catching up fast and the Europeans will eventually stop squabbling over where the control centre is to located and establish Galileo.

If the war is global enough to take out GNSS systems the last thing you'll be worried about is your location on the ocean !!

Garmin has just released a dual gps/ glonass receiver , so has onwa ,many others in the pipeline.

You can postulate all sorts of failure modes., your keel could also fall off, but I don't see you carrying a spare one. The fact is in extremis, assuming all sorts of woe and calamity. You " could" loose gos positioning. S O what, the sun always sets in the west. Let's knock the ridiculous notion that if you use gps you suddenly loose the ability to think. the fact is at the extreme the outcome is simple, you die, several do each year, but in general these extreme failure modes are very few and far between. Simple backup precautions prevent most from happening. The last boat I was on had 6 independent gps location devices in itb( between the crew, iPads, iPhones, Garmins , plotters etc)

At the end of the day if you carried your " what if" argument to its conclusions we'd never sail anywhere as a boat is full of "single points of failure".


Note , not in any of my posts would you find me arguing against paper charts. , but I recognise the supremacy and dominance of electronic charting and position fixing. It's is and becoming completely so, the norm.
Please keep it real , leave the fear Mongering to the politicians

Dave
Pretty fair argument Dave except that I would counter the emphasised bit with the view that many some are using GPS (and especially electronic charts) 'caused they never had enough thinking ability to do it the "old way" of paper, pencils, bearings, sights and mental arithmetic.

Me - I like compromise - electronic fixes plotted on paper but I have no interest in arguing which / what is "better"; but I prefer the company of those who had the old skills and who are also happy to use electronic methods.
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Old 25-08-2012, 19:52   #636
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Originally Posted by Wotname
Pretty fair argument Dave except that I would counter the emphasised bit with the view that many some are using GPS (and especially electronic charts) 'caused they never had enough thinking ability to do it the "old way" of paper, pencils, bearings, sights and mental arithmetic.

Me - I like compromise - electronic fixes plotted on paper but I have no interest in arguing which / what is "better"; but I prefer the company of those who had the old skills and who are also happy to use electronic methods.
While you and I ( I'm a fan of ancient navigation techniques. I can even do lunars !), might moan the supposed lack of such skills the fact is that the technology is reliable ( well certainly as reliable as the rest of the boat !) and many 1000s of voyages are competed without loss of such technology. Just as the average driver now accepts fly by wire cars, the average sailor excepts such technology. Occasionally it goes badly wrong and the odd person dies. To be brutal , so what, the statiistcs are a few will die one way or the other. The fact is the use of such technology is" sufficient", it does the job 99% of the time for the 1 % ( or whatever failure percentage ) we just shrug our shoulders, despite all the aircraft casualties, we still fly in our millions. It not like there only a few of us on te planet.

This is why the argument is mis-directed. The technology works the vast majority of times, hence it will be used by the many and they'll view this discussion with a wry smile and return to pushing the buttons. You know what. Damm, they get to the next marina just the same as you or i do.!!

Dave
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Old 25-08-2012, 19:59   #637
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
While you and I ( I'm a fan of ancient navigation techniques. I can even do lunars !), might moan the supposed lack of such skills the fact is that the technology is reliable ( well certainly as reliable as the rest of the boat !) and many 1000s of voyages are competed without loss of such technology. Just as the average driver now accepts fly by wire cars, the average sailor excepts such technology. Occasionally it goes badly wrong and the odd person dies. To be brutal , so what, the statiistcs are a few will die one way or the other. The fact is the use of such technology is" sufficient", it does the job 99% of the time for the 1 % ( or whatever failure percentage ) we just shrug our shoulders, despite all the aircraft casualties, we still fly in our millions. It not like there only a few of us on te planet.

This is why the argument is mis-directed. The technology works the vast majority of times, hence it will be used by the many and they'll view this discussion with a wry smile and return to pushing the buttons. You know what. Damm, they get to the next marina just the same as you or i do.!!

Dave
Well said Dave,
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Old 26-08-2012, 02:18   #638
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

I think some posts are suggesting that those that are on the side of electronics in this debate (ie they believe charts can be used safely without a paper chart backup providing their is sufficient electronic backup) also believe no navigational skills are needed. That is not the case and is a separate issue.

I believe all blue water sailors need the basic navigations skills (to be able to determine a 3 point fix, running fix, clearance bearings etc). These skills are not difficult to teach someone and most of these techniques can be used quite easily on electronic charts (running fixes are difficult). Some people also suggest that those with electronic charts will forget all their basic skills. I don't think this is the case, there is some need to practice especially if the techniques have been reciently acquired, but for example I think I could still do a running fix as quickly as I ever could and I have not done one for 5 years (my boat has radar).

In short, advocating paper charts as unnecessary, does not mean advocating no navigational skills.

As a side issue I believe to use electronic charts safely requires more skill than is often appreciated.
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Old 26-08-2012, 03:27   #639
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Goodoint noelex, I fully agree, not only should everyone have some basic skills. But the don't get suddenly dumb because they use electronics

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Old 26-08-2012, 04:44   #640
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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I believe all blue water sailors need the basic navigations skills (to be able to determine a 3 point fix, running fix, clearance bearings etc). These skills are not difficult to teach someone and most of these techniques can be used quite easily on electronic charts (running fixes are difficult). Some people also suggest that those with electronic charts will forget all their basic skills. I don't think this is the case, there is some need to practice especially if the techniques have been reciently acquired, but for example I think I could still do a running fix as quickly as I ever could and I have not done one for 5 years (my boat has radar).

Which chart plotters allow easy plotting of bearing lines?
My Raymarine only has the "measure" feature which allows one bearing and distance line to be plotted.
At work, on the ECDIS, can draw up to 3 bearing lines from different objects, and its pretty easy to plot a position on the ENC or a raster chart using this feature. Be nice to see this on a chart plotter
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Old 26-08-2012, 08:10   #641
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Which chart plotters allow easy plotting of bearing lines?
My Raymarine only has the "measure" feature which allows one bearing and distance line to be plotted.
At work, on the ECDIS, can draw up to 3 bearing lines from different objects, and its pretty easy to plot a position on the ENC or a raster chart using this feature. Be nice to see this on a chart plotter
It depends on the program. My favourite is maxsea that makes it very easy. On most of the chartplotters the best way is to create a route, this allows multiple lines to be drawn on the chart. The bearing and distance are automatically calculated so in practice it's quicker than doing the same thing on paper although not as satisfying. There is something nice about seeing those pencil lines intersectIng on a paper chart.
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Old 26-08-2012, 08:42   #642
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Not unnecessary - paper charts and knowing how to use them are essential as backup but elecronic navigation really is faster, simpler and probably safer.

Using Navionics on the iPad has been invaluable for passage planning, covering far more alternative route plans (in detail) far quicker then narrowing it down to a planned route. I then load chosen route onto the Zeus Chartplotter. I've just used this system down the Swedish coast through Denmark, Germany, Belgium, Holland, France, UK, France - so far without a hitch.

I use the paper charts to keep a written position fix every 3 hours or so and a handwritten log with COG SOG etc. in case both the boat electrics and the iPad go on the blink.

Anything that makes passage planning easier when you are short-handed probably makes the navigation safer which I think is a good thing.

Incidentally I heard of someone doing the same trip I did with paper charts who hit a buoy off the Belgium coast that wasn't marked on his detailed paper chart of the coast.
When I looked on my iPad it was shown (I think the navionics app installs updates every time you download).

Then there's community layer - you can add detail based on your own observations and upload it so others who download then turn on community layer get to see these if they want.
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Old 26-08-2012, 09:01   #643
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Welcome aboard Saltytales
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Old 26-08-2012, 10:56   #644
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

salty, welcome aboard!

Yeah, I do agree. I keep paper because it's a no battery needed backup, just like I'll be carrying a set of reduction tables very specific to what ever cruising grounds I'm currently sailing printed. I also use Electronic nav, though with OpenCPN and Google Earth linked to GPS. If I'm in range of a net connection, I can get realtime weather overlays and forecasts and current weather radar images via Google Earth in conjunction with EarthNC, and get other nav data as well.

I'm very much a techno-nerd, but I also understand the limitations of both tech levels, whether digital or paper. The tech makes it faster and easier, but "Old School" has served mariners for centuries, and is still a valuable skillset to have.
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Not unnecessary - paper charts and knowing how to use them are essential as backup but elecronic navigation really is faster, simpler and probably safer.

Using Navionics on the iPad has been invaluable for passage planning, covering far more alternative route plans (in detail) far quicker then narrowing it down to a planned route. I then load chosen route onto the Zeus Chartplotter. I've just used this system down the Swedish coast through Denmark, Germany, Belgium, Holland, France, UK, France - so far without a hitch.

I use the paper charts to keep a written position fix every 3 hours or so and a handwritten log with COG SOG etc. in case both the boat electrics and the iPad go on the blink.

Anything that makes passage planning easier when you are short-handed probably makes the navigation safer which I think is a good thing.

Incidentally I heard of someone doing the same trip I did with paper charts who hit a buoy off the Belgium coast that wasn't marked on his detailed paper chart of the coast.
When I looked on my iPad it was shown (I think the navionics app installs updates every time you download).

Then there's community layer - you can add detail based on your own observations and upload it so others who download then turn on community layer get to see these if they want.
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Old 26-08-2012, 12:32   #645
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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It depends on the program. My favourite is maxsea that makes it very easy. On most of the chartplotters the best way is to create a route, this allows multiple lines to be drawn on the chart. The bearing and distance are automatically calculated so in practice it's quicker than doing the same thing on paper although not as satisfying. There is something nice about seeing those pencil lines intersectIng on a paper chart.
Thanks, that was so easy, should have thought that through myself. See it works great on Open CPN, as the bearing is displayed as the mouse is moved, have to see how it works out on a Raymarine CP

One disadvantage of paper charts I find is getting them damp. Not too bad if you have a dedicated navigator, but solo, on a cold rough night, its all too easy to transfer salt water from hands to charts, despite trying to dry them off first.
Have a perspex sheet to go over the chart, and use a chinograph pencil at time, but that can make using the chart awkward.
If had plenty of money to throw away, could use those the water proof type, but they are expensive.
Oh well, all part of the fun.
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