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Old 22-08-2012, 14:36   #601
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
There have been lots of good stories in this thread, but a consistent theme is that stupid and incompetent is associated with electronic charts.
I can assure people stupid existed before electronic charts, even before GPS. Stupid without electronic charts and GPS is much scarier than stupid with these aids.

A tale fom my early crusing days. I was crusing the Vava'u group of islands in Tonga. The navigation here prior to GPS was difficult. Most of the island are only palm tree height and one island looked almost identical to the next.
I met a fellow cruser that was totally lost. He described a harrowing tale of sailing over shallow water with bommies. He had no idea where he was. He had sailed half way around the world with this level of skill.
The puzzle was we were anchored within sight of one of the few landmarks a large high volcanic island a simple bearing from this would have shown his estimated position was impossible.
I spent a couple of days trying to get him to be able to use the sextant he had on board. He could take good sights, but got lost in the maths.

A guess the moral of my tale is incompetent existed long before electronics.
It's also worth noting that electronics make stupid at least a safer stupid, as well as making the competent safer.
Agreed...put one of the main features of electronic navigation systems is that you don't have to think as much. Not thinking and incompetence go hand in hand. The difference between ignorance and stupidity is: ignorance we can fix, stupidity is permanent.
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Old 22-08-2012, 17:44   #602
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

I have noticed that chart plotters can make the stupid even more stupid. I had an incident where a guy pulled up and stopped right in my oncoming path not 30 yards away simply because his gps told him he had arived at his fishing waypoint. Never even looked around. I do use and rely on my chart plotter, but for a better over view and route planning I still use my paper charts. And I look where I'm going.
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Old 22-08-2012, 20:20   #603
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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That sounds very much like the floating dock we patched up to be towed to China, from Melbourne,
It sank in the South China Sea, Nearly taking the Tug with it,

Hope yours is not the same,

Wish you luck,
The drill rig.....



The boat....

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Old 22-08-2012, 21:36   #604
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Hey Hopper,

Two comments:
1. Really ugly tow.
2. Really good looking tow boat!

Have a safe passage.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 23-08-2012, 01:38   #605
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Yukko, What a crappy tow, Hope you have calm seas all the way with that monstrosity,

At least the floating dock that sank had most of its weight under water and looked like a big U shape, and the waves could run straight through it,

I think the dock was just that old, it just broke apart, It was old and worn out when it came from Germany originally, I worked on it off and on for over 30 years, Then Patching it up to go to China, There was nothing to weld too, Totally rusted out,

Make sure You can release the tug quickly, Other wise it will take you down as well,

How much of that is under water, The draught, It looks very top heavy, but that depends on what you cant see under water,

Good luck, And I mean that sincerely,

Brian,
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Old 23-08-2012, 13:52   #606
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quite simply a chart plotter is a very powerful navigation tool that should be be used in conjunction with other forms of navigation....It does not totally replace any navigation system.
I learned navigation from my father (WWII USN) many years ago...I learned "old school navigation", I also understand how things work.
I am a photographer, I learned on film and see things differently, more completely and have a better understanding of how it works than people that start with digital.
The same applies to welding...gas welding is considered archaic and out-modded but not only gives a better idea if the workings, it is still useful.
There are countless examples of how "obsolete" methods give a better understanding than their more modern counter parts/replacements.
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Old 24-08-2012, 14:25   #607
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Hear hear, wolfenzee.

The E6-B circular slide rule is another fine example of 'past' technologies which allow a greater understanding of the subject that do newer technologies.

Electronic navigation gear greatly simplies the tasks but do not teach the fundementals or relationships. They do not allow for correlative knowledge.

Reliance on GPS makes the user not much more than a button pusher when given the task to estimate fuel burn, time enroute, arrival times, wind triangles and the like.

Ahem, speaking of GPS, twice I have gotten lost with other pilots when they were in command. Magenta line of death, indeed!

Preference for older techs is not something of a Luddite's abhorence of new tech; it is a practice of utilizing that higher level of learning. Plus, deriving a LOP by hand is a heck of a lot more satisfying than simply punching in a waypoint and let the gizmo do the thinking for you.

I admit to a preference for dividers and rule, it finely tunes my skills. To me it is all about skill. Yet I am not opposed to electronic plotters slaved to another wonder of the world which is GPS.

BtW: I can calc faster on a E6-B 'whiz wheel'faster than any other pilot on an electronic version. And it's cordless, no batts required. If I flub a step I don't have to start over. Ok, I'll shut up now.
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Old 24-08-2012, 14:33   #608
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
There are countless examples of how "obsolete" methods give a better understanding than their more modern counter parts/replacements.
Paper charts are a much better medium to learn navigation, no arguments (from me) there.
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Old 24-08-2012, 15:39   #609
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Richard5 understands. Perfectly! He gets it.

It's not about button pushing or which modern gadget can "replace" older technologies.

It's about basic SKILLS. The newer technologies -- wonderful and useful as they are -- tend to short-circuit the acquisition and practice of basic piloting and navigation skills.

And, even the OP who posted this provocative thread, agrees that...
"Paper charts are a much better medium to learn navigation, no arguments (from me) there."

Bill
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Old 24-08-2012, 17:46   #610
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Im still buying used Charts !! with all the folks on here who think they are obsolete, you would think there would be Lot's of them for sale !! But ya know Ive got cash in hand and am ready to buy!! and Ive said this on this thread 2 or 3 times !! and Nobodys offered to sell me any yet !! Hummm, maybe they are not so obsolete after all huh?? Im not kiddin I will buy all ya have ! If I dont all ready have those charts!! put up or shut up LOLOL
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Old 24-08-2012, 19:02   #611
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

The most interesting case of doing away with paper charts I'm aware of was on the Air New Zealand flights down to Antarctica.

The pilots had briefings, with slideshows (like a Powerpoint presentation, but without the spraycan-derived veneer of putative professional polish) showing their route.

They were not given any charts to take home and study. They were not given charts to take on board. There were no chartplotters.

What they were given was a route, expressed as waypoints, to be fed into the inertial navigation computer. (An identical unit furnished backup)

Can anyone see where this is going?
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Old 24-08-2012, 19:42   #612
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Im still buying used Charts !! with all the folks on here who think they are obsolete, you would think there would be Lot's of them for sale !! But ya know Ive got cash in hand and am ready to buy!! and Ive said this on this thread 2 or 3 times !! and Nobodys offered to sell me any yet !! Hummm, maybe they are not so obsolete after all huh?? Im not kiddin I will buy all ya have ! If I dont all ready have those charts!! put up or shut up LOLOL
Bob, If you get extra's for the gulf and key's give a shout..Michael..
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Old 24-08-2012, 20:11   #613
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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I released that I have finally reached the conclusion that paper charts are unessasary on my boat.
I still have them because they are left over, but never the less it's a change in mind frame.
I would have disagreed with this philosophy untill recently, but It is an area which is changing rapidly.
When I started full time crusing about 5 years ago I had one set of electronic charts and carried paper as a back up.
I now have detailed electronic charts on 7 separate devices. Six of these have their own power supply which could be recharged with solar, or two other energy sources. I have 5 separate 12v battery supplies.
Two of the chart sources are stored away and protected from lightening damage.

I think this is enough redundancy and paper charts are no longer necessary.

Pilot books of any unfamilar area a great help and are always carried if available, but i think it wont be long before these are electronic as well.

Anyone else prepared to "come out" and agree paper charts have become obsolete on their boat.
As he said "on his boat" with the level of redundacy that he has and by implication distant cruising.

I did not detect any sugestion that any one should go to sea without the basic seamanship skills of P&N Paper charts as a learning tool, hell yes, if your boat is relying on a single level of redundancy, hell yes but on his boat and an increasing number in the future the question needs to be asked.
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Old 24-08-2012, 20:20   #614
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Will do Michael !! I will even go thru what I have and see if I have any Dups !! Cus I don't think any of these electric plotters guys really want to go Chartless LOL
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Old 24-08-2012, 20:35   #615
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Richard5 View Post
Hear hear, wolfenzee.

The E6-B circular slide rule is another fine example of 'past' technologies which allow a greater understanding of the subject that do newer technologies.

Electronic navigation gear greatly simplies the tasks but do not teach the fundementals or relationships. They do not allow for correlative knowledge.

Reliance on GPS makes the user not much more than a button pusher when given the task to estimate fuel burn, time enroute, arrival times, wind triangles and the like.

Ahem, speaking of GPS, twice I have gotten lost with other pilots when they were in command. Magenta line of death, indeed!

Preference for older techs is not something of a Luddite's abhorence of new tech; it is a practice of utilizing that higher level of learning. Plus, deriving a LOP by hand is a heck of a lot more satisfying than simply punching in a waypoint and let the gizmo do the thinking for you.

I admit to a preference for dividers and rule, it finely tunes my skills. To me it is all about skill. Yet I am not opposed to electronic plotters slaved to another wonder of the world which is GPS.

BtW: I can calc faster on a E6-B 'whiz wheel'faster than any other pilot on an electronic version. And it's cordless, no batts required. If I flub a step I don't have to start over. Ok, I'll shut up now.

Nice Post ,,,, thanksss....
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