Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 21-08-2012, 22:06   #586
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Montegut LA.
Boat: Now we need to get her to Louisiana !! she's ours
Posts: 3,421
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Connie and I made our first Pacific crossing with ONLY Paper Charts and a sextant,and a Quartz wrist watch !! Never got lost !! We have done it with a Puter with the Captn set up and a hand held GPS And Paper Charts!! And we are still buying your used charts !! from anywhere !! Just sayin we like em !!
__________________

__________________
Bob and Connie
bobconnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2012, 22:23   #587
Registered User
 
Sailor g's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,137
IMHO, having as many tools as you can afford is a good thing. On a long voyage charts, chart plotter, radar & AIS are not usually needed at the same time so I don't see overload being a factor. It allows you to concentrate on what's important at that moment. Having and double-checking all tools can prevent relying on one-even eyeballs make mistakes.

It's funny we don't usually complain about autopilots despite they are only reactive-and can be dangerous if you are relying on them in a storm instead of your own skills-which are proactive (if you have the experience & reactions needed). Most would never travel long distances without them (and backup). It's good at what it's good for but not to be taken as fool-proof.

I agree there are dangerous boaters on the water and instruments can be a factor. I've passed-and had to alter course(!) because someone set the autopilot & went to the bow of their catamaran to sit with his mate in lawn chairs. [Please don't take this as a multi/mono debate starter even if they had a Rocna up there between them and a hand gun next to their cocktails ] That wasn't because of a bad instrument or even misplaced trust...it was just one of those things you can't see on a chart or instrument. The eyeballs won that one but it's nice to vector the tankers, cargo and container ships as I cross shipping lanes on AIS and call the ship to coordinate moves- its good for me but also for the ships-they have called after passing with a thank you for calling No matter how it is for me to cross-they must really be shaking to see all these little crazies playing chicken with them.
__________________

__________________
Sailor g is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 02:44   #588
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors
"Bill -- modern paper chart production is now mastered from digital data. The paper chart is not the master. Vector is a much superior technology and will eventually replace all raster products."

Dave,

Would that that were the case. It isn't.

Unless there's been a major change in the past year, NOAA reports that the paper chart is the basis and the controlling factor for all charts, raster and vector.

Yes, there is an electronic rendition of the paper charts...it's the vector chart.

NOAA has commissioned and is working toward a time when there will be a single electronic database from which both raster and vector charts are produced. Such product does not exist at the moment. They say it will be a few years before that can be done.

That's for NOAA charts. For "third-part vector charts", like those provided with chartplotters, the situation is quite different. They are digitized...sometimes by hand...and suffer from errors of commission and omission. Some are better than others, of course.

"As to using AIS and staying out of there way , you have obviously never crossed the English channel or traveled across the Gibraltar approaches., staying out of the way of 12 to 16 ships all travelling 14-18 knots spread over miles of ocean isn't an option, you dance with them , in that case the more aids I have the better. "

You're right: I've never crossed the English Channel in a small boat. However, I have navigated the Gibraltar approaches, as well as several other high traffic areas around the world. One of the most active is the Delaware Bay/Delaware River, as well as the approaches to NY Harbor, Baltimore, etc. Never have I felt the need for AIS.

The worst reason I can think of for fitting AIS is that "it is cheaper than radar". That's really a shame, because excellent used radars can be found for not a lot of money. AIS or radar? Not even a moment's indecision, IMO. If you don't have the money for radar now, save the $$$ you'd spend on AIS and save up for a few months and get a working radar.

Bill
I append a quote from the IHO
"
The IMO performance standards for ECDIS states that where ENCs are not available, RNCs may be used in ECDIS to meet the chart carriage requirements. However, when an ECDIS is being used with RNCs, the RNCs should be used together with “an appropriate folio of up to date paper charts”. See section “Meeting carriage requirements for ECDIS”.
The option to use RNCs in ECDIS will steadily reduce as more and more ENCs become available.
Because of their nature, RNCs when used in ECDIS do not provide the same level of functionality that is provided by ENCs. The limitations of operating with RNCs are outlined in IMO SN Circulars 207/Rev.1 and 255 (see Annex to this section)."

Which clearly states the supremacy of vector chart technology. In fact unless you use vector charts in an IMO ecdis system you still have to carry the paper.

All hydrographic officies are working towards a vector master database. Again it shows where the future lies and it certainly isn't with paper master charts. ( and of course given the technology deployed now in HOs, you can see that's obvious)

The futures digital. , paper charts will be something you print out from your computer from the digital master. I like paper charts, but I know where the technology is driving HOs .


As to AiS , only people who rant about radar like yourself denigrate AIS. The rest of us mariners just get on with using whatever tools we have and can afford. aIS especially transponders are a great aid, there's no further discussion, the worlds made its mind up.


Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 03:09   #589
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,942
Images: 1
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Don't know about you guys, but I don't have ECDIS and damn few cruisers have (I've never heard of it).

But I'll repeat - here in Denmark, unless you have ECDIS (double redundant on everything) then the Søfartsstyrelsen (Office of Maritime Safety) requires paper charts. If you have a chart plotter, then you still must have paper charts. It is up to you which is your primary - but you must have them.

I'll easily agree - digital is the future, no question. But we live in todays world.
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 05:24   #590
Senior Cruiser
 
IslandHopper's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bundaberg Queensland/Lake Bolac Victoria, Australia
Boat: 45ft Ketch
Posts: 1,202
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Back again....

Just a final farewell message, it seems we shall be flying to Houston next week to tow a jack up rig back to Dampier Western Australia....

The vessel we will be using is one of the older ones in the fleet and is not ECDIS equipped, doesn’t even have a basic chartplotter, just a Furuno GP32 and paper charts....

Now obviously this is a suicide mission and all 20 of us are expected to die, but if anyone can spare a chartplotter, even a cheapy Garmin, as we all know the charts are decidedly more accurate than the official paper rubbish that we will be forced to use......we may just stand a chance....

My crew and their respective families thank you for any assistance offered...

Pray for us....
__________________
Adventure before Dementia.
John....
IslandHopper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 05:40   #591
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Paper Tiger 14 foot, Gemini 105MC 34 foot Catamaran Hull no 825
Posts: 1,616
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
Back again....

Just a final farewell message, it seems we shall be flying to Houston next week to tow a jack up rig back to Dampier Western Australia....

The vessel we will be using is one of the older ones in the fleet and is not ECDIS equipped, doesn’t even have a basic chartplotter, just a Furuno GP32 and paper charts....

Now obviously this is a suicide mission and all 20 of us are expected to die, but if anyone can spare a chartplotter, even a cheapy Garmin, as we all know the charts are decidedly more accurate than the official paper rubbish that we will be forced to use......we may just stand a chance....

My crew and their respective families thank you for any assistance offered...

Pray for us....
That sounds very much like the floating dock we patched up to be towed to China, from Melbourne,
It sank in the South China Sea, Nearly taking the Tug with it,

Hope yours is not the same,

Wish you luck,
__________________
Mr B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 05:42   #592
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,942
Images: 1
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Don't forget your reading glasses - that way you can read the tiny print on the charts

good luck!
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 05:50   #593
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 959
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

IslandHopper, that is funny. Thanks for the laugh. Stay out of the headlines.
__________________
Richard5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 07:45   #594
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: Boatless Again
Posts: 4,335
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
Back again....

Just a final farewell message, it seems we shall be flying to Houston next week to tow a jack up rig back to Dampier Western Australia....

The vessel we will be using is one of the older ones in the fleet and is not ECDIS equipped, doesn’t even have a basic chartplotter, just a Furuno GP32 and paper charts....

Now obviously this is a suicide mission and all 20 of us are expected to die, but if anyone can spare a chartplotter, even a cheapy Garmin, as we all know the charts are decidedly more accurate than the official paper rubbish that we will be forced to use......we may just stand a chance....



My crew and their respective families thank you for any assistance offered...

Pray for us....
Just be sure to take ALL the paper charts you will possibly need--you never know where you will end up. I remember a few years back when a ship had to divert and pick up a sick baby off a sailboat and take it to the Galapagos. They had to take the sailboat's charts, as they weren't carrying any detailed charts for that area.

Or you could take a laptop with OpenCPN and CM93 charts for the world, and not have to worry wherever fate takes you....
__________________
donradcliffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 08:14   #595
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,334
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
Back again....

Just a final farewell message, it seems we shall be flying to Houston next week to tow a jack up rig back to Dampier Western Australia....

The vessel we will be using is one of the older ones in the fleet and is not ECDIS equipped, doesn’t even have a basic chartplotter, just a Furuno GP32 and paper charts....

Now obviously this is a suicide mission and all 20 of us are expected to die, but if anyone can spare a chartplotter, even a cheapy Garmin, as we all know the charts are decidedly more accurate than the official paper rubbish that we will be forced to use......we may just stand a chance....


My crew and their respective families thank you for any assistance offered...

Pray for us....
Thread drift alert (but after 40 pages - so what )

If you get a leg on, you might be able to catch up with Boatman61, sure he has a head start but he has been travelling pretty slowly
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 10:44   #596
Eternal Member
 
wolfenzee's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (NW corner of Puget Sound)
Boat: 30' William Atkin cutter
Posts: 1,496
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

A friend of mine sailed to Hawaii using just GPS coordinates he was given and into a harbor that had been suggested (also only using GPS)....when he got off the reef he was told he was the first boat that had ended up on that reef that got off in one piece (harbormaster said if he did it again he'd name the reef after him)....he declined the offer.
__________________
"It is better to die living than live dieing" (Tolstoy para-phrased by Jimmy Buffet)
"Those who think they know everything piss off those of us who do"
wolfenzee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 11:25   #597
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

There have been lots of good stories in this thread, but a consistent theme is that stupid and incompetent is associated with electronic charts.
I can assure people stupid existed before electronic charts, even before GPS. Stupid without electronic charts and GPS is much scarier than stupid with these aids.

A tale fom my early crusing days. I was crusing the Vava'u group of islands in Tonga. The navigation here prior to GPS was difficult. Most of the island are only palm tree height and one island looked almost identical to the next.
I met a fellow cruser that was totally lost. He described a harrowing tale of sailing over shallow water with bommies. He had no idea where he was. He had sailed half way around the world with this level of skill.
The puzzle was we were anchored within sight of one of the few landmarks a large high volcanic island a simple bearing from this would have shown his estimated position was impossible.
I spent a couple of days trying to get him to be able to use the sextant he had on board. He could take good sights, but got lost in the maths.

A guess the moral of my tale is incompetent existed long before electronics.
It's also worth noting that electronics make stupid at least a safer stupid, as well as making the competent safer.
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 13:01   #598
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,439
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
It's also worth noting that electronics make stupid at least a safer stupid, as well as making the competent safer.
Yes, but it gets the stupid out on the water (and out in the bush) in great numbers. Just hope the electronics keep working, and aren't made mandatory for everyone.....
__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 13:15   #599
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Hood River Or
Boat: Boereal 44
Posts: 189
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

OK Nolex, I will top your tale or maybe add to it. In 1972, pretty deep into the S. Pacific I met a Vancouver, BC. couple on their beautiful boat who did not know how to use a sextant. Compass was the only thing they used. When I asked them how that was for them they just said that they got to most islands all the way from Vancouver just fine. But they also said they completely missed a few destinations and when that happened they set a new compass course and moved on. Maybe it was the same folks you mentioned and still lost.

The Vava'u group is easy now, well marked and in 2008 NZ did a complete charting of the group with the most modern of ships and equipment.

I still bet you have every paper chart you need. Not saying you will buy new ones.

Cheers
__________________
stevewrye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 13:31   #600
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevewrye View Post

The Vava'u group is easy now, well marked and in 2008 NZ did a complete charting of the group with the most modern of ships and equipment.
Nice to know, I hope to get back there soon. The charts seemed reasonable when I was there, but you tend not notice discrepancies using DR. GPS has made us much more critical of charting errors. One of the problems with electonic navigation is that people ascribe a much greater degree of accuracy than what is achieved in practice. This is particularly noticeable when talking to crusing sailors that have come from a background of well mapped and charted areas.
__________________

__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
charts

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:55.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.