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Old 21-08-2012, 01:05   #541
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

I'll chime in my two cents again. Chartplotters are great. I use one all the time when I am sailing. However, all paper chart data (assuming the paper is completely up-to-date) bass exactly the same information that any chartplotter has - all data comes from the hydrographic office.

I will certainly agree that buying a complete set of paper, including detail charts of any area will incur a significantly greater expense than shelling out for an updated chip. But the data is the same.

As to when the surveys were made - Most countries are resurveying (western world) using side-scanning sonar etc and the data gets better and better, but this is not a all-out effort. The first areas surveyed are, naturally, the commercial lanes and those with heavy traffic. As a cruiser, I generally like to go places that are not commercial or heavily trafficked. Those places will be the last ones surveyed.

As I also noted, charts or plotters -. a personal preference. I use both - quite happily.

GPS/Sextant oh oh - heres a religion question. Should a sailor know how to use a sextant? Considering the small expense involved in buying a handheld - in my opinion, it is not necessary.

I own a sextant, know how to use it and practice enough to retain the skill set. Why? First because I enjoy it. SEcond because when on blue water - it could conceivably be a lifesaver. And when on blue water - hell, I've got nothing else to do out there. I can't practice a violin or bring my piano so I have to have something to do.
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Old 21-08-2012, 06:08   #542
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
You interpret a questioning of outright misinformation on your part as a personal attack.

It is not a personal attack when someone is called out for saying this statement:



If you are going to continue posting around here you should at least be big enough to accept a correction when it is pointed out.

I have been corrected many, many times. It is not the end of the world and it is definitely not a personal attack.

Cheers!


I just gave you a *specific* example of where the chart plotter had more accurate information than the paper charts. You have singled my comments out a number of times.

Ex, if you're wrong, you're wrong, and you are the one who can't deal with it. I did leave an important word out -- "not." Quite specifically, on the Miami River (FL one), as you exit from the south branch there are eight bascule bridges, some of them extremely close together. I guess we are just stupid, but we wanted to know the actual water depths. It was a new boat to us and we did not know how well we would be able to maneuver moving her out into Biscayne Bay.

We looked at every chart we could find of the area, and none showed depths in the river. The last bridge (Brickell) does *not* open on demand (not being the word I left out). We got there at 1:45 PM with an outgoing current and we had to maneuver in front of the bridge for 15 minutes in a narrow space.

Fortunately, the chart plotter DID show where the few shallow areas were on that river, and we were able to maneuver with confidence.

The chart plotter had important information we did not find on any paper chart.

Clearly, in that case, the chart plotter contained information the paper chart did not. What's more, it was easy to zoom in and get details. It took up a small amount of space and was easy to read. We had already studied the best paper chart we could find of the area as well.

You DID get quite personal in your post. If you can't see that, that reflects on you, not me. I would have gladly accepted your "correction" had it been either 1) accurate (it wasn't) or not personal (it was).

I won't ever just jump you for no reason except that I thought up something to zing you with, but push me and I will push back. Always.
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Old 21-08-2012, 06:28   #543
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

This thread has its ups and downs and differing views can cause people to get a bit testy.

Please lets keep the content relevent to the thread and the rest offline.

Thanks
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Old 21-08-2012, 07:23   #544
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

To late it's become infested, on the ignore list it goes......
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Old 21-08-2012, 07:25   #545
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Originally Posted by stevensuf
Having paper charts is fine if you are sticking to small defined cruising areas, but for the long picture, say a circumnavigation, with lots of ports, way too expensive and would take up far too much room!

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Your opinion, not my experience....or are you of the belief that no one circumnavigated before GPS/Chartplotters.....
Guess this would depend on ones definition of too expensive and too much room. Hope to cruise Europe and the Med in a couple of years so went online to check the cost for paper charts, starting with the standard British Admiralty charts as a reference. By the time I added the cost for coastal and a fair number of harbor charts starting with Ireland and UK and on to Holland, France, Spain, Portugal, Gibraltar, Spain, France, Italy, Greece I had added up dozens of charts and a few thousand dollars. I think there are some cheaper options that the expensive Admiralty charts but still added up into thousands. Considering the importance or necessity of proper charts (depending on the side one takes on paper vs electronic issue) I would never say "too expensive" but certainly a very significant expense in my book.

The too much room question has the same answer. I can always find room for a stack of charts but it can become cumbersome finding the right place.

If anyone knows of a cheaper alternative for EU paper charts ( of course without sacrificing quality and accuracy) I'm interested.
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Old 21-08-2012, 07:39   #546
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Who buys new charts these days, anyway? Used are way cheaper, and usually plenty to be found... Try asking a tanker captain while in a larger harbor clearing in, or other sailors in the area.....
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Old 21-08-2012, 07:44   #547
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Who buys new charts these days, anyway? Used are way cheaper, and usually plenty to be found... Try asking a tanker captain while in a larger harbor clearing in, or other sailors in the area.....

If I couldn't afford the paper charts, my opinion would be that I couldn't afford the trip. Instead I would suggest networking with other sailors around the world. Maybe you can arrange a swap loan.

Asking for local knowledge is great, but unfortunately you don't know whether the person on the other end of the radio has that remarkable verbal ability to give good directions.
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Old 21-08-2012, 07:51   #548
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by elliebell View Post
Who buys new charts these days, anyway? Used are way cheaper, and usually plenty to be found... Try asking a tanker captain while in a larger harbor clearing in, or other sailors in the area.....
asking on thr vhf cruiser net in your area also yeilds many offerings as far as used charts is concerned.

as far as charts not showing depth--- what kind of charts are you using???? every chart i have read has depth for rivers and inland watwerways.
mine are in fathoms for open water and feet for inland waters--the lower case f for feet, capitalized F for fathoms.
my charts that read meters, also has depths of water in inland waterways inclusive of rivers. i dont know where you get your charts, raku, but they DO have more info than the electronic ones i have read. i do not buy copies of charts.
raku--is difficult to have to read arguments between sophomores and seasoned cruisers/racers. you argue with everyone, regardless of their experience level, also typical with sophomores. please rack up experience before arguing so hard.
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Old 21-08-2012, 08:22   #549
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
asking on thr vhf cruiser net in your area also yeilds many offerings as far as used charts is concerned.

as far as charts not showing depth--- what kind of charts are you using???? every chart i have read has depth for rivers and inland watwerways.
mine are in fathoms for open water and feet for inland waters--the lower case f for feet, capitalized F for fathoms.
my charts that read meters, also has depths of water in inland waterways inclusive of rivers. i dont know where you get your charts, raku, but they DO have more info than the electronic ones i have read. i do not buy copies of charts.
raku--is difficult to have to read arguments between sophomores and seasoned cruisers/racers. you argue with everyone, regardless of their experience level, also typical with sophomores. please rack up experience before arguing so hard.

So you have traveled the little Miami River?

I do not argue with everyone. I do find your repeated personal attacks on me tedious but I have concluded that you can't help it. And I'm sure the moderators will let you know when you are in charge of who has "enough experience" to be here.

This was my REAL experience with the Miami River. Want to know why we looked so hard for detailed information on the Miami River? Because the boat had sat for 20 years and was completely untested by us. Although it's 30', it was never designed for an inboard engine and we had to use an outboard on a narrow river with a sometimes fairly strong current. In two places the bascule bridges were extremely close together. We *really* needed to know of any shallow areas in that river. We talked to dockmasters, locals and people at marine supply stores. We never found a single chart with depths for the Miami River. Having been up a number of rivers at this point I knew that was atypical.

Well, it turned out that the chartplotter DID have that information. It WAS insignificant -- we would not have taken the boat that close to the seawalls. It was tremendously helpful to confirm what we were told via local knowledge, but we were not about to go up that river blind.

That's not the only time I have found information on the chart plotter that was not on the chart.

It's interesting that you believe that because you have experienced something in one part of the world, you think it is true in all parts of the world. So I ask you again -- have you sailed the Miami River?
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Old 21-08-2012, 08:33   #550
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

i havent plans to sail miami river but i DO know charts nd how to read them and how to find the small lil markings that describe the inland waterways, as i was taught to sail on inland waterways. funny how it is EVERY time you decide to make a oint you use attack instead of discussion. try reading the charts as thy were meant to be read. inland waterways, in usa terminology , are written with inland water ways being listed in FEET not fathoms. you should find a small letter f on the charts in the small lil rivers, as proper charts actually do. good luck and smooth sailing.
if you use copies of charts, you may not have full info--is why i do not use copies.
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Old 21-08-2012, 08:40   #551
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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i havent plans to sail miami river but i DO know charts nd how to read them and how to find the small lil markings that describe the inland waterways, as i was taught to sail on inland waterways. funny how it is EVERY time you decide to make a oint you use attack instead of discussion. try reading the charts as thy were meant to be read. inland waterways, in usa terminology , are written with inland water ways being listed in FEET not fathoms. you should find a small letter f on the charts in the small lil rivers, as proper charts actually do. good luck and smooth sailing.
if you use copies of charts, you may not have full info--is why i do not use copies.

So you have no first-hand knowledge of the waters I was in, but you are still certain I am completely wrong.

I am not the person who talked about using copies of charts. I have never heard of such a thing and it sounds like a violation of copyright law. Maybe it's some alternate but licensed system, I don't know, but I like the real deal. I'm sure you won't believe this either, but I find studying charts fascinating.

You attacked me, Zeehag. You called me a "sophomore" and told me to shut up until I had some undefined level of experience that you personally approve of. Why you don't just do everyone here a big favor and filter me is beyond me. But look at all the assumptions you have made about me, all completely unwarranted. You believe (based on no information whatsoever) that I don't know that some charts are in fathoms while others are in feet.

It's really quite insulting, but I don't think you can help it.

Where you were taught anything is irrelevant. The question was if you had ever navigated the Miami River. Since you haven't, you have had no reason to go on a search for charts of that river. You just decided I "must" be wrong and now are repeatedly pounding on about something you have NO personal experience of. Zeehag, that does not diminish what you DO know. But you jumped on something I said, ASSUMED it couldn't be right, and now can't let go of it. What's up with that?
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Old 21-08-2012, 08:46   #552
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Old 21-08-2012, 08:51   #553
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

raku--if you woud READ the posts you will find you are not being atacked -- the charts DO have the info IF you know where and how to read them.
why do you perceive every post as being an attack on you personally?? is only when you attack others that you are going to perceive the posts as personal attacks on you. you are not under attack--i merely asked if your charts were copies or proper charts. proper charts have the depth of inland waterways. is not an attack on you to say so.
no one need sail miami river in order to now how to read charts.
raku--you have ben sailing just long enough to get yourself into trouble without knowing how to get out of it (was your own admission in a previous post in another thread)-- 3 yrs makes a sophomore. unless you are still a freshman--
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Old 21-08-2012, 08:57   #554
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post

If anyone knows of a cheaper alternative for EU paper charts ( of course without sacrificing quality and accuracy) I'm interested.
A lot can be done with some small scale charts and pilots guide. UK to Gib is easy with a few charts and something like the cruising association almanac which has chartlets of all the harbours or anchorages on the way. Cruising Almanac 2012 | CA
A few areas like north Brittany coast are tricky and would warrant a larger scale chart but most is easy. Plus there are a lot of copy shops along the way with a selection. Very difficult to buy charts before you go cruising as you would be locked into a route.
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Old 21-08-2012, 08:57   #555
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
raku--if you woud READ the posts you will find you are not being atacked -- the charts DO have the info IF you know where and how to read them.
why do you perceive every post as being an attack on you personally?? is only when you attack others that you are going to perceive the posts as personal attacks on you. you are not under attack--i merely asked if your charts were copies or proper charts. proper charts have the depth of inland waterways. is not an attack on you to say so.
no one need sail miami river in order to now how to read charts.
raku--you hve ben saiig just long enough to get yourself into trouble without knowing how to get out f it-- 3 yrs makes a sophomore. unless you are still a freshman--

Sorry, Zeehag, but calling me a sophomore and telling me to shut up until in your opinion I have enough experience, followed by condescending explanations about charts that I've known for some years IS insulting.

Where did you get the idea that I have been sailing for only three years? How many days in a year do I either take my boat out or actively crew on someone else's boat? I would put the years I have up against twice that many for most recreational sailors, who are lucky if they take their boats out six times a year.

Yeah, I do know just enough to get myself in trouble. SO DO YOU, because that's the nature of sailing. If you like it, you're always stretching yourself. You've provided stories of times you ended up in trouble. You dealt with it effectively, but guess what ... so have I.

How did this turn into "how to read charts?" Because YOU made unfounded assumptions based on waters you're COMPLETELY unfamiliar with. You ought to stop doing that; it's not the first time for you.
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