Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-08-2012, 17:15   #526
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
I think I've written it before, but if not here goes.

Most charts (and all chart plotter electronic charts are based on the same information as paper charts) have data that is old. How old? Well in many european countries, the data was generated in the 1800's by sailing a ship at 100 meter intervals and "casting the log". This generated data that was then extrapolated and show the same depth between the 100 meter sailing lines. This means that if one run showed a depth of 6 meters and another run 100 meters away also showed 6 meters, then it was assumed that the entire area was 6 meters. In some areas of the world, charts are based on data supplied by Captain Cook and his like.

So - these charts (and this is most charts) are, in and of themselves, unreliable or at the least based on incomplete data. In a recent court case, instigated by an insurance company, the hydrographic office won. The insurance company attempted to get regress on the office saying the chart did not show a series of rocks where a sailor smashed his boat. The courts reasoning was that with the data collected as it was in the 1800's and since the hydrographic office also included a statement with each chart saying this, that no regress was possible.

If you turn on your electronic chart plotter, the first thing on the screen is a statement saying that the charts shown are unreliable and you hereby agree that no regress is possible. By pressing enter you agree.

Just so we understand - the electronic chart is no more accurate than a paper chart. If both are updated then they are equal in accuracy.

Regarding which you like to use -this is a personal preference. I use both, quite happily and I can't see myself getting rid of paper any time in the future because it gives me a much better overview than I get with my plotter

Mebbe ... sometimes ... but we just had the experience of the chartplotter having better, more detailed and more accurate information than the paper chart multiple times.

People who don't want to use electronics will find a way to disagree, and that's their right, but I hope this isn't followed by comments about using a sextant. Both the chart and the chart plotter provide a lot more information than a sextant. They're all related to navigation, but they're not all interchangeable.
__________________

__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 17:22   #527
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Mebbe ... sometimes ... but we just had the experience of the chartplotter having better, more detailed and more accurate information than the paper chart multiple times.

People who don't want to use electronics will find a way to disagree, and that's their right, but I hope this isn't followed by comments about using a sextant. Both the chart and the chart plotter provide a lot more information than a sextant. They're all related to navigation, but they're not all interchangeable.
Raku - Not picking on you but this is like taking a high school English test.

Sextant is to gps as
electronic chart is to paper chart

Sextant is to electronic chart as
elephant is to apple

A GPS provides a fix. A properly used sextant provides a fix.

Charts (paper or otherwise) do not provide a fix.

(OK everyone please resume your regularly scheduled debate)
__________________

__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 17:25   #528
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Montegut LA.
Boat: Now we need to get her to Louisiana !! she's ours
Posts: 3,421
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

What ever !! Im still buying charts !! the older the better!! message me on here !!
__________________
Bob and Connie
bobconnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 17:40   #529
Senior Cruiser
 
IslandHopper's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bundaberg Queensland/Lake Bolac Victoria, Australia
Boat: 45ft Ketch
Posts: 1,199
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Mebbe ... sometimes ... but we just had the experience of the chartplotter having better, more detailed and more accurate information than the paper chart multiple times.

The only way that could happen is if your paper chart is that old and never been corrected that it may as well be used as toilet paper, don't believe me ? get in touch with your electronic chart supplier and they will tell you where the info comes from....a corrected and up to date paper chart will have the same navigational info as a corrected and up to date electronic chart....Garmin, C-Maps (Jeppesen) Navionics Transas etc will all tell you the same......if there are as many discrepancies as you claim then there is something wrong with the equipment or the operator, in my experience its usually the later....

People who don't want to use electronics will find a way to disagree, and that's their right, but I hope this isn't followed by comments about using a sextant. Both the chart and the chart plotter provide a lot more information than a sextant. They're all related to navigation, but they're not all interchangeable.

Absolutely no idea what a sextant is have you......
God.......
__________________
Adventure before Dementia.
John....
IslandHopper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 17:48   #530
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Raku - Not picking on you but this is like taking a high school English test.

Sextant is to gps as
electronic chart is to paper chart

Sextant is to electronic chart as
elephant is to apple

A GPS provides a fix. A properly used sextant provides a fix.

Charts (paper or otherwise) do not provide a fix.

(OK everyone please resume your regularly scheduled debate)

Not picking on you, but you don't know much about chart plotters. Or, apparently. paper charts.



Don't think I'd go to a circus with, you, either!
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 17:59   #531
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Not picking on you, but you don't know much about chart plotters. Or, apparently. paper charts.



Don't think I'd go to a circus with, you, either!
You don't know anything about me - I don't know why you have to be so nasty to everyone who disagrees with you.

I have no need to send you my sailing resume. I've been around a while.

Take a pill...
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 21:00   #532
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb
I think I've written it before, but if not here goes.

Most charts (and all chart plotter electronic charts are based on the same information as paper charts) have data that is old. How old? Well in many european countries, the data was generated in the 1800's by sailing a ship at 100 meter intervals and "casting the log". This generated data that was then extrapolated and show the same depth between the 100 meter sailing lines. This means that if one run showed a depth of 6 meters and another run 100 meters away also showed 6 meters, then it was assumed that the entire area was 6 meters. In some areas of the world, charts are based on data supplied by Captain Cook and his like.

So - these charts (and this is most charts) are, in and of themselves, unreliable or at the least based on incomplete data. In a recent court case, instigated by an insurance company, the hydrographic office won. The insurance company attempted to get regress on the office saying the chart did not show a series of rocks where a sailor smashed his boat. The courts reasoning was that with the data collected as it was in the 1800's and since the hydrographic office also included a statement with each chart saying this, that no regress was possible.

If you turn on your electronic chart plotter, the first thing on the screen is a statement saying that the charts shown are unreliable and you hereby agree that no regress is possible. By pressing enter you agree.

Just so we understand - the electronic chart is no more accurate than a paper chart. If both are updated then they are equal in accuracy.

Regarding which you like to use -this is a personal preference. I use both, quite happily and I can't see myself getting rid of paper any time in the future because it gives me a much better overview than I get with my plotter
This is a generalisation. For example in Europe most commercial routes , sea ports, fishing grounds etc, have been re surveyed with modern survey techniques. Other places yes rely on old data or a combination of old and new data.

Because its easier to update electronic charts these are often well ahead of paper charts. As to manual updates I notice chart shops ( and these are now few and far between) are not necessarily updating all their charts. I got uncorrected ones as new.

You are incorrect as to your statement as to what you see on a chart plotter. My Garmin makes no reference to such " unreliable" data at sign on. Some do and some don't. You certainly can't sign away your rights at the press of a button.

Furthermore your statement " the electronic chart is no more accurate then a paper chart" again is an incorrect generalisation. Almost all hydrographic offices have transitioned to digital methodologies. In most cases a combination of raster and vector storage systems are used. Often modern vector data sourced from newer surveys IS more accurate then can be represented on a chart and hence when rendered correctly on a chart plotter provides better resolution or more clarity of detail. Equally unless you are carrying multiple paper charts including large and small scale of the same area , it's likely your plotter will contain more information then your paper charts. Furthermore companies like CMAP and Navionics receive survey data ( like new marinas etc) that are incorporated quickly into their digital offerings , yet take literally years to appear on paper charts. ( I seen this especially in Greece and elsewhere) then there is the developing technology of " crowd sourced " data , a process that is not easily transferred to paper !!

Fundamentally hydrographic offices believe all future chart delivery systems will be electronic. This doesn't mean the end of paper, but that paper will be clearly be the secondary process.

In my view, today it's virtually impossible , today, especially outside the US to sail without electronic charts. OF COURSE, one takes paper charts along, but my experience on many boats is that paper charts are typically small scale planning charts, few cruisers can afford the complete paper chart set anymore. Furthermore it's getting harder and harder to buy paper charts locally, few major ports have a chart agent anymore. Chandeliers tend to carry a very restricted set. hence the Widespread and illegal ( outside the US) of making photocopies of others cruisers paper charts.

In my case as I do northern European and med sailing. I use almost exclusively IMRAY charts. These have the advantage of being durable, being good planning charts , with a few detailed ports , typically those useful to sailors. The cover a large area at a reasonable expense. They are however not really suitable for manual updating. Since they dont cover all the coasts in enough detail, I wouldn't set sail without a proper ( and considerably cheaper) electronic chart set. The is the only cost effective way to chart up for a long med passage. I should add that I can use a sextant, but now it's just for fun.

I recently sailed from France to Greece via Corsica, Italy, sardinia, Sicily , etc. I shudder to think how much a complete paper chart set of all those coasts would cost,, never mind the difficulty in sourcing them.

The fact is , electronic charts are the prime navigating instrument for most sailors , with paper charts being rightly carried as backup and typically used as route planning aids. ( mind you this is being challenged by large screen laptop planning aids )

I fully accept that in the US paper is cheaper then elsewhere and the print on demand system ensures availability. This may skew the debate in the US, but elsewhere were it not for electronics we'd be lost !! . European hydrographic agencies are not following the US lead in on-demand printing , believing the jump to digital is inevitable. In fact most chart work is now actually outsourced to commercial companies, and hence has a significant economic factor. The days of the all powerful and ever present UKHO have like the Admiralty gone the way of the do-do bird

Note I am not aware of any significant numbers of countries in Europe that require a leisure to specifically have paper charts. SOLAS V requires adequate charts be carried but it doesn't specify what type.

There is a self full filling prophecy here, ask any hydrographic office ( I'm involved in chart generation in a small way ) and the will tell you that the production of paper charts is loss making and increasing so, as their major commercial customers complete the transition to digital. Coupled with the significantly cheaper electronic charts and near universal use of digital charts in leisure vessels, spells a slow end to paper. Most hydrographic offices in the new financial dispensation now are required to turn a profit , they will follow their commercial customer demands, leisure users do not really register.

The RYA shore based Yachtmaster course now contains a significant element devoted to electronic charts and chart plotters including students being supplied with a custom RYA PC based chart plotter simulator. This recognises the reality of most sailors experience. In fact at a recent RYA powerboat instructors conference, a suggestion was made that the RyA Yachtmaster ( powerboat) course remove any paper chart instruction. thankfully this was not acted upon, but it shows the direction of thinking

In time I suspect looking at trends , a lot of secondary aids to navigation will go virtual, rendering paper problematic, digital charts will be updated over the internet( as they are now on many ships).

We can " tilt at windmills" but " progress" marches on.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 21:23   #533
Registered User
 
rubyjean's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
Boat: Haida 26
Posts: 502
Images: 2
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

I guess I'm just old. But I still like to study bar crossings and harbor entrances. I do have a chart plotter, but don't really trust it. I have paper for every voyage, makes me feel better. And that's what makes me safe. My chart plotter is a pain to study a harbor entrance 50 miles out. That's just me..Michael..

I also carry a SEXTANT and know how to use it..
Crazy huh.....
rubyjean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 21:44   #534
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubyjean
I guess I'm just old. But I still like to study bar crossings and harbor entrances. I do have a chart plotter, but don't really trust it. I have paper for every voyage, makes me feel better. And that's what makes me safe. My chart plotter is a pain to study a harbor entrance 50 miles out. That's just me..Michael..

I also carry a SEXTANT and know how to use it..
Crazy huh.....
While I applaud your integrity, you might like to ponder the cost of acquiring paper charts for the med trip i mentioned, with over 50 possible ports, bays/anchorages/marinas that were on our route ( out of approx 150) then factor in acquiring both small and large scale charts at approx average cost of $50 per chart, then sourcing them from chart agencies in several countries and receiving charts with quite different approaches and languages. It's no wonder everyone just gets a few planning charts and orders a med digital chip for a few hundred euros !!

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 22:38   #535
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
You don't know anything about me - I don't know why you have to be so nasty to everyone who disagrees with you.

I have no need to send you my sailing resume. I've been around a while.

Take a pill...

It's quite remarkable that you notice when I respond rudely to your rude posts to me, but you don't see that every single time, you have taken the first swipe. I'm quite certain, however, that I did not ask for your sailing resume. I stand by what I said.

I have never posted to you rudely out of the blue. All I did was respond to your post in the same tone you used toward me.

I don't think you should take a pill, however. I think you should just stop trying to bust my chops. But if you continue, don't expect me to thank you for it.

__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 22:45   #536
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

The reason the chart plotter has a disclaimer statement is the same reason the jar of mayonnaise says to refrigerate after opening.

There is no reason to refrigerate mayonnaise. I leave mine out and use mayonnaise that has been open and not refrigerated for months, with no problem. But the statement to refrigerate absolves the company of liability should someone be so dumb as to leave the chicken salad out in the sun for 8 hours and then eat it. It's not the mayonnaise that made them sick -- it was the spoiled chicken that happened to be included with the mayonnaise.

Same thing with the chart plotter. The company doesn't want to be sued.

I just helped someone move a boat up the Miami River. No chart showed any shallow places on the river, and the truth is that most of that very short river is quite deep. Most of the time it was deep seawall to seawall. We couldn't find a single chart that even showed depths for the river, and locals told us not to worry. It's a heavily industrialized river and commercial vessels run up and down it all the time.

ONLY the chartplotter showed a few shallow places. Since one of the bridges is on demand but the bridge is narrow, it was important to know how much space we *really* had to turn the boat around while waiting for the bridge.

It was the chartplotter that most accurately showed the depths of the area we were moving to as well.

Standard disclaimer here -- I would never sail using only a chart plotter even if by some miracle I could be absolutely certain it would not fail. Not saying that; not advocating that; don't believe that. But it *absolutely* had information not on any charts we could find.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 22:50   #537
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Where the anchor holds:)
Boat: Newport 27 S-II
Posts: 81
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

What a dumb argument. Ya can't fix stupid
__________________
elliebell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 22:54   #538
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Where the anchor holds:)
Boat: Newport 27 S-II
Posts: 81
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Hawaii: Global Positioning System (GPS) Testing

Created by sue. Last modified on 2012-08-16 20:00:06
Topic: Cruising Information
Countries: Hawaii, USA

A series of GPS tests will be conducted in the vicinity of Kaua'i at various times from 19 Aug 2012 through 09 Sep 2012.
Mariner’s are advised by the US Coastguard that, during testing, GPS WILL BE UNRELIABLE AND MAY BE UNAVAILABLE to shipboard and handheld navigation systems, e-911, AIS, DSC, and other position, navigation, and timing systems which rely on GPS signals.
Testing is scheduled as follows:
From August 19 – September 9, 2012, 1500W – 2000W and 0000W – 0400W, mariners are advised GPS will be unreliable and may be unavailable within a radius of 60 nm from position 22-49-12N/160-09-27W.
From August 19 – September 9, 2012, 2000W – 0400W, mariners are advised GPS will be unreliable and may be unavailable within a radius of 298 nm from position 22-05-39N/159-45-11W.
From August 20 – September 9, 2012, 0000W – 0400W, mariners are advised GPS will be unreliable and may be unavailable within a radius of 425 nm from position 22-19-23N/159-58-02W.
During these test periods, GPS users are encouraged to report any GPS service outages that they may experience to the U.S. Coast Guard Navigation Center (NAVCEN) by calling (703) 313-5900 or by using the NAVCEN website (www.navcen.uscg.gov) to submit a GPS problem report.
Our thanks to Rudolph Andreae for bringing this navigation alert to our attention.
__________________
elliebell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 22:56   #539
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
It's quite remarkable that you notice when I respond rudely to your rude posts to me, but you don't see that every single time, you have taken the first swipe. I'm quite certain, however, that I did not ask for your sailing resume. I stand by what I said.

I have never posted to you rudely out of the blue. All I did was respond to your post in the same tone you used toward me.

I don't think you should take a pill, however. I think you should just stop trying to bust my chops. But if you continue, don't expect me to thank you for it.

You interpret a questioning of outright misinformation on your part as a personal attack.

It is not a personal attack when someone is called out for saying this statement:

Quote:
" Both the chart and the chart plotter provide a lot more information than a sextant.:
If you are going to continue posting around here you should at least be big enough to accept a correction when it is pointed out.

I have been corrected many, many times. It is not the end of the world and it is definitely not a personal attack.

Cheers!
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 23:20   #540
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 2,961
Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
The reason the chart plotter has a disclaimer statement is the same reason the jar of mayonnaise says to refrigerate after opening.

There is no reason to refrigerate mayonnaise. I leave mine out and use mayonnaise that has been open and not refrigerated for months, with no problem. But the statement to refrigerate absolves the company of liability should someone be so dumb as to leave the chicken salad out in the sun for 8 hours and then eat it. It's not the mayonnaise that made them sick -- it was the spoiled chicken that happened to be included with the mayonnaise.

Same thing with the chart plotter. The company doesn't want to be sued.
Errr . . . not exactly. Are you an attorney?
__________________

__________________
Exile is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
charts

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:31.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.