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Old 18-08-2012, 10:00   #511
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Many times sailors,with or without charts are guided into anchorages/harbors by vhf radio.With shifting sands at many entrances,proven waypoints are given out over radio by fellow cruisers for safe entry.I like to print out or save to computer google earth images of any place I may need to enter.
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Old 18-08-2012, 10:16   #512
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

The prudent navigator should use any and all means to fix his position, up to and including reading the entrails of chickens.
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Old 18-08-2012, 10:37   #513
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Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I think not using them together is foolish.
I agree.
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Old 18-08-2012, 11:21   #514
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

As a Caveat to my previous post; The afore mentioned chickens shall be conversant in both Coastal and Celestial navigation and be in possession of a valid 100 ton USCG Masters ticket.
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Old 19-08-2012, 07:20   #515
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
Island Hopper, I see your online, What are the paper charts like for inside the Barrier reef,

I hope to go through there next year, Its unfamiliar territory, so any advice would be appreciated,

I intend going to the Kimberlys,

Thanks,
Brian,
I think you will find paper charts (and electronic) for all the GBR reef area of Qld very good.
It has been well surveyed for the high level of shipping movements thesedays.
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Old 19-08-2012, 09:27   #516
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
I think you will find paper charts (and electronic) for all the GBR reef area of Qld very good.
It has been well surveyed for the high level of shipping movements thesedays.
Thank you,
I have electronic charts for Adelaide to Darwin, All the east coast. But no paper as they all got drowned,

My mate is going to dig out a heap of charts for Port Phillip and Western port.

He doesnt use them so he will give them to me, He has a big heap of them, I will see what he has, then I will buy what I need,

Brian.
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Old 19-08-2012, 17:17   #517
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
Thank you,
I have electronic charts for Adelaide to Darwin, All the east coast. But no paper as they all got drowned,

My mate is going to dig out a heap of charts for Port Phillip and Western port.

He doesnt use them so he will give them to me, He has a big heap of them, I will see what he has, then I will buy what I need,

Brian.
Way to go

Make sure when you are in the GBR area to spend some time cruising the actual reefs not just the contenital islands as most yachts do. Many, many excellent anchorages with your new anchors.

Particually for a start the Capricorn bunker group off Bundaberg. It is very easy cruising north amongst them. real coral cays - places such as Heron and Masthead islands there.
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Old 19-08-2012, 18:58   #518
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
Island Hopper, I see your online, What are the paper charts like for inside the Barrier reef,

I hope to go through there next year, Its unfamiliar territory, so any advice would be appreciated,

I intend going to the Kimberlys,

Thanks,
Brian,
As downunder says, the GBR is well surveyed (both inside and out) as is the rest of the QLD coastline including the Torres Straits. Below is a selection of cruising guides that i carry for the area's, you will find a lot of information in these that you won't find on any chart (both paper and electronic)...

All these can be found at >> Boat Books Australia the Guide To Cruising Northern Australia Cairns To Darwin is the only one i think that is available in electronic (CD) format, i prefer the books anyhow, easier for me to read and highlight points/make notes in.......





Guide To Cruising Northern Australia Cairns To Darwin (CD) vv


Also...

from >> Around the Top ...A Passage Around the North Australian Coastline : Del Colvin & Garry Capper : Highgate Hill : 9780646510569 - The Chart & Map Shop

I don't know what size engine or fuel capacity you have, but once you get into the Kimberley’s you will be doing a lot of motoring, if you want to get to all the good spots that is....

You need to work the (huge) tides and currents, and that combined with sometimes weeks of doldrum like wind conditions can and does play havoc with sailboats. I lived and worked there for 5 years (Cockatoo Is, Cygnet Bay, Kuri Bay and Vansittart Bay) and lost count of the times we got a VHF call from some sailboat that had run out of fuel trying to go against the currents, or some poor dehydrated bugger rolls up in a dink from god knows where with a few jerry cans ....

And while the pearl farms and the few fishing camps will usually help out, sometimes charging extortionist fuel prices (they pay quite a bit to get the fuel there in the first place) they should not be relied on, word does get around pretty quick on the bush telegraph if there is some Yottie bumming his way around the Kimberley’s....

Apologies for the off topic, Brian maybe you can start a thread in the destinations area.......

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Old 19-08-2012, 20:30   #519
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Thanks John and downunder, Very helpfull,
I will start a new thread in destinations,
Cheers,
Brian,
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Old 19-08-2012, 20:59   #520
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

I weighed my bunch of paper charts, a 50 +yr collection! total weight 57 lbs!! but ya know if ya want to get rid of ANY charts for anywhere, I would be glad to buy them (for a discounted amount cus ya never need em anymore) I like my paper makes me feel secure and all cozy !! just sayin Ive never had TO Many Charts !!!
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Old 19-08-2012, 21:04   #521
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

+1, Bob... Capt Phil
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Old 19-08-2012, 21:32   #522
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by bobconnie View Post
I weighed my bunch of paper charts, a 50 +yr collection! total weight 57 lbs!! but ya know if ya want to get rid of ANY charts for anywhere, I would be glad to buy them (for a discounted amount cus ya never need em anymore) I like my paper makes me feel secure and all cozy !! just sayin Ive never had TO Many Charts !!!
Agreed.....

I know a few sailors that use the "weight" excuse for not carrying paper charts, yet seem quite happy to carry an extra 60lbs around there waist.....
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Old 20-08-2012, 02:37   #523
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

I think I've written it before, but if not here goes.

Most charts (and all chart plotter electronic charts are based on the same information as paper charts) have data that is old. How old? Well in many european countries, the data was generated in the 1800's by sailing a ship at 100 meter intervals and "casting the log". This generated data that was then extrapolated and show the same depth between the 100 meter sailing lines. This means that if one run showed a depth of 6 meters and another run 100 meters away also showed 6 meters, then it was assumed that the entire area was 6 meters. In some areas of the world, charts are based on data supplied by Captain Cook and his like.

So - these charts (and this is most charts) are, in and of themselves, unreliable or at the least based on incomplete data. In a recent court case, instigated by an insurance company, the hydrographic office won. The insurance company attempted to get regress on the office saying the chart did not show a series of rocks where a sailor smashed his boat. The courts reasoning was that with the data collected as it was in the 1800's and since the hydrographic office also included a statement with each chart saying this, that no regress was possible.

If you turn on your electronic chart plotter, the first thing on the screen is a statement saying that the charts shown are unreliable and you hereby agree that no regress is possible. By pressing enter you agree.

Just so we understand - the electronic chart is no more accurate than a paper chart. If both are updated then they are equal in accuracy.

Regarding which you like to use -this is a personal preference. I use both, quite happily and I can't see myself getting rid of paper any time in the future because it gives me a much better overview than I get with my plotter
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Old 20-08-2012, 03:16   #524
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Brian just to add to John's points in which i'm in total agreement seek out Noel Patricks guide as well, Noel was a great mate who knew this coast like no other.

I have lived, fished, raced and sailed the Capricorn Bunker group for 30+ years and want to add the following points.
1. Never by choice navigate any of these reef areas unless the sun is high.
2. Estuaries have a high flood in the wet season so treat as per reef with care as banks and bars complete with submerged trees abound.
3. When anchoring at night behind a reef simply write down an escape heading with chinagraph on your compass, when the wind shifts you will appreciate it, there is nothing worse in panic at night to have to deal with the bright glare from a plotter.
Magic country, i could survive 6months in Port Clinton enjoying every muddie...mmmmmMMMM.
Cheers
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Old 20-08-2012, 16:34   #525
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
This is really the crux of the whole debate for me.

There are those that will point out that lightning strike, multiple equipment failure and the government turning off the system as a "possibility" that must be planned for.

Many of these people can also fall into the camp of 2 liferafts, 2 SSB, 2 Spots and EPIRBs and enough spares on board to completely rebuild the boat twice while at sea.

Everyone has a risk tolerance. When one assumes a level of risk the naysayers then point out what a burden you will be to the SAR folks when that fatefull day ever comes and how irresponsible one would be not to prepare in advance.

As you said Mr. B years ago we had none of this stuff and I might point out that when you were at sea no one could find you anyway so f you had a disaster you were in deep poo.

Anyway - these threads are fun to debate but really no one changes their mind because of what is written on a forum. They may internalize the "seeds" of the discussion and at some point in the future "evolve" to a different paradigm.
A friend of mine crewed on a boat to the Virgin Islands, the owner of the boat had every imaginable electronic gizmo available at the time as well as back ups and backs for the back ups....his idea of a back up was another of the same thing (like 3 weather faxes). The boat sat noticeably below it's design waterline. About a week into the trip every piece of electronics was non-functional and my friend whipped out his plastic Davis sextant.

A friend of me just had to replace the electric fresh water pump on his boat (apparently rebuild kits just don't exist for them, you toss them and get a new one). My fresh water pump was built in 1920, can't find a commercial "rebuild kit"...but a couple of scraps of leather will work for that as well as my bilge pump from the 1940s as well as an old bronze head pump from the same era which has been recycled into a bilge pump (never had to rebuild them as long as I have owned therm),my Gusher 15 bilge pump is a "discontinued model" so rebuild kits for it are next to impossible to find/very expensive.
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