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Old 17-08-2012, 18:21   #496
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
I was using a Sat Nav unit in 84 or 85, made by Texas Instruments if i remember correctly......i remember the price tag though....$4900.00!

A single fix every six hours, and you had to set your alarm clock to make sure you where there to get it, miss it and it was another six hours before the satellite passed again....

Average accuracy of about 2 miles, sometimes better sometimes a lot worse. Purely for open ocean use only, once in sight of land you turned it off......scary stuff!
Been there done that. Had a haywire fix in the bermuda triangle 2x while at anchor. Satnav put us 3miles inland. Photocopies is great cheap way to keep charts on board. Allready got that Ipad loaded with charts and handheld GPS for backup stored below. For 299 and some batteries the backup is great idea. First sign of lightening i disconnect laptop etc from charger anyways so who needs 3 separate power systems. We got stack of current duracell AA batteries if the "loo hits the fan", Would like to hear of false GPS fixes as i have never personally seen one since we upgrades from SATNAV to magellen GPS years ago. However we trust charts especially close to harbours with recent breakwall/reef construction.The google earth boys came through this area 4 yrs ago so 4yr old Ipad charts i dont trust.My vote is keep the paper or at least cheap photcopies of charts.Love my laptop with "lighted" keyboard for night use and its high speed etc. but charts are great too.Like to know exactly where i am at all times especially close to land/reefs. Forward searching sonar is really the greatest toy on board.cheers
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Old 17-08-2012, 18:54   #497
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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The added value are the pencilled notes on the charts from many years of working and cruising up there.
Capt Phil
About the only value they have for me
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Old 17-08-2012, 19:14   #498
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
So many think that hydrographic offices employ monks with goose feathers and ink pots to draw charts and update them.

So few know that they use computers instead and that the paper charts are just prints from electronic source.

And the debate goes on and on and the old & grey keep insisting that paper charts are golden while electronic equal certain doom. Only time will fix this.

cheers,
Nick.
I don't know anyone personally that thinks that anymore, all class A chart suppliers that i know of print on demand, and quite a few class B suppliers are realizing the benefits of a printer to. Also a buddy of mine works on container ships (Evergreen) and they have their own full size chart printers on board...

But there are still plenty out there that still stock paper charts and keep correcting them until sold, one of my favourite suppliers does have a little old lady that has been correcting charts for a living for as long as i can remember, and does the most beautiful work i have ever seen, the best way to describe it is as art....

I do have the electronics which is more high end than most, but i will never get rid of my paper charts, i love them with a passion. I can amuse myself for hours just browsing through them and cleaning them up, as for my Chartplotters, they stir up about as much passion as any of my whitegoods...functional, nothing more...

John
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Old 17-08-2012, 19:50   #499
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Do you still carry a sextant? I'm guessing the answer is similar to the one about paper charts. I carry both. There's something about needing only a calendar and the sextant to get my latitude. And something about actually looking up in the sky, watching the sun, stars, and moon and connecting with them in a way that GPS just doesn't provide. Same with paper charts.

Having said that, can't remember the last detailed paper chart I bought/borrowed/copied/stole. I leave that to the electronics. But always carry larger area charts of the vicinity. Just easier for me to grok the whole picture (maybe I'm showing my age).

When route planning I think nothing beats the pilot chart atlas and Ocean Passages of the World to get me started. Then I go to the online routing tools, then back to the paper pilot charts and ocean size charts to draw a few lines. It's usually back and forth several times before it's all done. Maybe if I could figure out how to fit (and power) that 42" LED monitor I'd do it all on screen, but for now it's the combination that works best for me.
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Old 18-08-2012, 00:17   #500
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Paper charts and Paper money, the similarities with respect to usage are amazing.

Electronic in both cases is so handy and convenient etc BUT when your card is refused in some remote village it's just SO prudent to have a paper stash........

Frank
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Old 18-08-2012, 01:38   #501
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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The controversy and passion are fine. The trolls who continue to spew ignorance just to stir things up, are not fine.

There are people who make honest and valid points, and I might disagree with some. But there are also people who talk out of their a$$ without any knowledge or experience, who do not even seem to be wanting to make a valid point.

It just blows me away to hear most of the world was uncharted before WWII, when before the days of airplanes, automobiles and trains, the entire world was engaged in maritime trade. Most of the world was charted 300 years before WWII, and it was a top priority of everyone to perfect and enhance those charts long before the US Revolutionary War, much less WWII.
Some times 2 different points of view can be correct. As far as i know USA charts have been very well done for a very long time. Mr B' sailing experience is bringing his boat back to AUs. I know that some of the charts in those areas are still inaccurate based on position established by sextans and limited soundings. i would not want to be there with anything less than a electronic charting system, radar and maintaining a proper watch on deck to properly pilot the vessel.

Generalisations are very dangerous who ever makes them.
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Old 18-08-2012, 02:48   #502
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Mr B' sailing experience is bringing his boat back to AUs. I know that some of the charts in those areas are still inaccurate based on position established by sextans and limited soundings. i would not want to be there with anything less than a electronic charting system, radar and maintaining a proper watch on deck to properly pilot the vessel. [/]
When I was saling in Australia a few years ago the paper charts of an area I frequently visited were peppered with notes like survey incomplete, last surveyed in the 1800s !!

Even today, sailing in Europe in the more out of the way places I like to sail maps (electronic and paper) are sometimes totally wrong showing small islands that don't exist and depths that are out by a factor of 10x.

A radar overlay is very useful, as is a detailed record of the track taken particularly into an anchorage. Tracks that have been recorded an retained on the electronic chart in daylight hours (with someone at the bow, looking for unmarked hazards), can be repeated (with a suitable margin of error) if for example the anchorage becomes untenable during the night.
These features are only possible on an electronic chart.
It is these sort of reasons that make electronic charts superior IMHO for the cruising sailor.
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Old 18-08-2012, 06:12   #503
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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I wouldn't say that paper charts are golden. I think paper and electronic both have their advantages. I do believe sailing with just electronic and not having paper as a backup is foolish.
I agree! I'm no Luddite when it comes to having electronics on board.
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: WHAT THE HELM?: Part 2
But, I still make a good living on occasion because electronics DO fail. Even those that operate in very pampered environments. Just yesterday I was involved with trouble shooting a 15 input multi image display card that cost about $7 thousand bucks. It failed with no warning. It was located in a rack in an air conditioned electronic equipment room inside a shielded frame. It just died. I've seen enough electronics mysteriously fail like this over the years to never have total faith in them on board. That's why I also carry charts and have them nearby in the cockpit when I sail. I use both while underway but, don't worry if the electronics should fail because I know I always have a backup as long as some charts are on board.
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Old 18-08-2012, 07:33   #504
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
i have yet to find free charts f anywhere but contiguous united states. not usvi, not puerto rico--and these charts i found were via google earth a few years ago and many puters ago--that feature wasnt offered in my last few updates of google earth.
maps are easy to find but charts are not , that i can locate....if you have a magic linky to go to for other charts than usa, please let me know.
All the US islands charts are on the free NOAA website.
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Old 18-08-2012, 08:43   #505
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by justwaiting View Post
Some times 2 different points of view can be correct. As far as i know USA charts have been very well done for a very long time. Mr B' sailing experience is bringing his boat back to AUs. I know that some of the charts in those areas are still inaccurate based on position established by sextans and limited soundings. i would not want to be there with anything less than a electronic charting system, radar and maintaining a proper watch on deck to properly pilot the vessel.

Generalisations are very dangerous who ever makes them.
I've spent years traversing the same area, both commercially and recreationally with and without electronic charting systems without to many problems........you do realise both the paper and electronic are the same for the area......you do also realise that the info for both (no matter how old or accurate) comes from the same source, and yes i do have both....

People have been sailing around that area far longer than Chartplotters have been available, even radars for the small cruising boat haven't been around for that long.....35 years ago when we first sailed to Fiji (and beyond) and returned we had none of it....

Sorry, but to say you wouldn't go there with anything less than a electronic charting system (and radar) to me, is a very telling statement.....

Really, I'm starting to think the thread title should read "Navigational Skills Now Unnecessary If You Have A Chartplotter".....
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Old 18-08-2012, 08:51   #506
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
When I was saling in Australia a few years ago the paper charts of an area I frequently visited were peppered with notes like survey incomplete, last surveyed in the 1800s !!

Even today, sailing in Europe in the more out of the way places I like to sail maps (electronic and paper) are sometimes totally wrong showing small islands that don't exist and depths that are out by a factor of 10x.

A radar overlay is very useful, as is a detailed record of the track taken particularly into an anchorage. Tracks that have been recorded an retained on the electronic chart in daylight hours (with someone at the bow, looking for unmarked hazards), can be repeated (with a suitable margin of error) if for example the anchorage becomes untenable during the night.
These features are only possible on an electronic chart.
It is these sort of reasons that make electronic charts superior IMHO for the cruising sailor.
I dont know where youve been on the east coast of OZ, But your right about the paper charts,
Survey incomplete, and very large tracts of ocean are like that up there,

Especially the Coral sea, and in close to shore near Rockhampton, The Chart plotter said the same, A line across the screen, a line across the Charts, Then nothing,

The bottom of the Great Barrier Reef was the last of the Charts, after that your on your own, They did give depths here and there, but nothing else,

So it was a matter of watching the depth sounder constantly, I have 300 feet, so thats a bonus,

South of the Burnett river entrance, Coming into Bundaberg, My GPS or Chartplotter had me sailing up the beach, Half a mile to my left,

That was the only time it was out, every where else I had been it was dead accurate,
The water is crystal clear, so you can see the submerged rocks and the bottom, so that way you can verify that the chartplotter is accurate,

Once you move away from the OZ coast, 5 Miles or so, a lot of it is unsurveyed, Paper or Electronic,

So its a matter of keeping your eyes peeled, Most of the river entrances have bars which move in or out, Paper or Electronic dont keep up with these bars moving, so its a matter of going very easy and looking out for them,

Make sure your on the high tide when doing so,
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Old 18-08-2012, 09:04   #507
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Island Hopper, I see your online, What are the paper charts like for inside the Barrier reef,

I hope to go through there next year, Its unfamiliar territory, so any advice would be appreciated,

I intend going to the Kimberlys,

Thanks,
Brian,
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Old 18-08-2012, 09:09   #508
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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I wouldn't say that paper charts are golden. I think paper and electronic both have their advantages. I do believe sailing with just electronic and not having paper as a backup is foolish.

I think not using them together is foolish.
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Old 18-08-2012, 09:13   #509
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by justwaiting View Post
Some times 2 different points of view can be correct. As far as i know USA charts have been very well done for a very long time. Mr B' sailing experience is bringing his boat back to AUs. I know that some of the charts in those areas are still inaccurate based on position established by sextans and limited soundings. i would not want to be there with anything less than a electronic charting system, radar and maintaining a proper watch on deck to properly pilot the vessel.

Generalisations are very dangerous who ever makes them.

Age sometimes counts. The chart we had of Biscayne Bay was very old and we had no trouble moving through a spot that was marked as too shallow on the old chart. Not only did they dredge it out, but the chart plotter had the more accurate information. Saved us a huge amount of time.
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Old 18-08-2012, 09:34   #510
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

I use a helm chartplotter sailing in Maine. BUT I have my MapTech waterproof chart open beside me also. Not only as backup but it gives the "larger picture" view of planning a course ahead.
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