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Old 16-08-2012, 02:45   #481
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Having paper charts is fine if you are sticking to small defined cruising areas, but for the long picture, say a circumnavigation, with lots of ports, way too expensive and would take up far too much room!
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Old 16-08-2012, 02:56   #482
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by stevensuf View Post
Having paper charts is fine if you are sticking to small defined cruising areas, but for the long picture, say a circumnavigation, with lots of ports, way too expensive and would take up far too much room!
Your opinion, not my experience....or are you of the belief that no one circumnavigated before GPS/Chartplotters.....
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Old 16-08-2012, 04:40   #483
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Let's set the record straight. Notices to Mariners is free of charge. You can get them e-mailed to you every week if so desired. Then you will have to make the changes yourself.
point two - Hate to tell all of you, but electronic charts ; Navionics, C-Maps, Maxsea + anything else, are based on the paper charts issued by the proper Hydrographic Office. Basically your electronic chart is a PDF file of a paper chart.

Navionics, C-Map and the rest only issue updates as they get them from the Hydrographics Offices - which is why it generally is a waste of money to update your electronic charts more that once per year.

The Navionics/C-Maps etc you buy for your iPad have a lot less layers than the ones they make for a proper chart plotter. What does that mean? As you zoom in, you get greater "jumps" on a iPad. Meaning you might have to zoom in and out continually to be able to make any sense of it.

So - paper charts unnecessary? Well, I've made the point a lot earlier in this thread - In Denmark (and many other countries) paper charts are mandatory. Not like to have - but need to have. If you sail without them you are breaking the law. Period. Pile up your boat? Your insurance company might just decide that they won't pay since you were sailing without the proper navigational tools.

Some countries do not require paper charts, others do.

If you like electronic toys - by all means sail away with only electronics. Personally I find that I get a much better overview of an area with a paper chart than I do with a screen (maybe my screen just isn't big enough). While keeping charts up to date is a time hassle - what do we have the most of while cruising? What the hell else are you doing halfway across the pond? Practicing your violin? With a little practice, it takes very little time to update.
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Old 16-08-2012, 05:36   #484
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Navionics, C-Map and the rest only issue updates as they get them from the Hydrographics Offices - which is why it generally is a waste of money to update your electronic charts more that once per year.
Given that Notices To Mariners are issued weekly/daily, is there any technical or commercial reason why the makers of Navionics and C-Map would be constrained to get updates from Hydrographic offices only once per year?

If the chart maker can get access Mariner Notices as soon as they become available, one would asume it would be up to the maker to issue updated charts as frequently as he wishes to. I expect that's what some of the more expensive electronic chart makers do - customers pay a subscription and get an updated chart via download as soon as a particular chart changes.
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Old 16-08-2012, 06:04   #485
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

I imagine that laptops with all one's navigation charts and data as well as other such equipment are subject to theft rather than paper charts. There seems to be evidence that yachts are often targeted by thieves. Why would they bother to steal paper charts.?? Perhaps this has been mentioned before?
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Old 16-08-2012, 06:18   #486
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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I imagine that laptops with all one's navigation charts and data as well as other such equipment are subject to theft rather than paper charts. There seems to be evidence that yachts are often targeted by thieves. Why would they bother to steal paper charts.?? Perhaps this has been mentioned before?
Zeehag (another forum member) had all her paper charts stolen recently. Some of the electonic mapping systems give you multiple licences, but the electonic maps used by laptops and tablets are only cheap anyway. If the maps are $30 -$70 the loss of the maps is not a big deal even if you cannot get another copy at no charge.
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Old 16-08-2012, 12:05   #487
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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This might clarify a few points,

Marine any thing is very expensive, Electronics, Maps Etc,

Ipad is not Marine, So is inexpensive, Cheap,

If the Ipad was for Marine use, It would be very expensive also,

I just bought a 7 inch GPS and wireless reverse camera for my car, $100-00 It has all the maps of Australia, Free update of maps forever, 4 GB XD card, I can plug it into my computer and down load all the info, Tell it where you want to go, and it marks out all the roads for you, And every thing else you didnt think off, Including shops, Points of interest,

The stuff that is on it is unbelievable, And it talks as well, Its also a hands free Phone, Video recorder from the front facing camera. Has all speed limits,

My waterproof GPS for the bike was $130-00, With all the same as above, Minus the camera,

If it was a Marine version, It would have been $3000-00 to $5000-00

You rich Yuachtys can afford it, The Marine versions, Hahahahahaha
Old laptops are a cheap alternative to a chartplotter....but laptops are also delicate to begin with, used ones suffer from the wear and tear of their earlier life. I have gone through several laptops, all succumbing to something minor like a jolt from slipping off the bunk or something internal dieing, my last one died because the on/off switch went bad (I think that is the problem, if it is it will be expensive to have fixed...more if it is something else).
i Pads don't have enough storage space and power to work independently of a net connection.
My plan is to get a small low power central computer (like the ASUS EEEbox)to live safety below decks with a wireless conection to an Android type tablet topside(it is possible to run windows on an Android tablet with a few tweaks, this will act as a "remote desktop" )for the main computer and doesn't require large storage or computing power...thus and old style (low power), cheap tablet can be used and is "expendable"
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Old 16-08-2012, 18:05   #488
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Marqus View Post
Given that Notices To Mariners are issued weekly/daily, is there any technical or commercial reason why the makers of Navionics and C-Map would be constrained to get updates from Hydrographic offices only once per year?

If the chart maker can get access Mariner Notices as soon as they become available, one would asume it would be up to the maker to issue updated charts as frequently as he wishes to. I expect that's what some of the more expensive electronic chart makers do - customers pay a subscription and get an updated chart via download as soon as a particular chart changes.
I don't know where this info comes from re Navionics and C-MAP being constrained in obtaining updates from the relevent Hydrographic offices.......they receive notices from hydrographic offices all around the world 24/7....they do after all supply to the commercial worlds needs (ECDIS) as well...

The equipment and technology is readily available (to the rec boater) for receiving marine notices 24/7 for some ENC systems such as C-MAX/MAX Pro Charts, it all depends on how big your budget is and if you are willing to cough up on equipment and ongoing subscription and licensing fees....

Also you dont actually get an updated chart with the downloaded correction (to much data), you just download the correction that is then uploaded to the chart.....


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Old 16-08-2012, 18:40   #489
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Correction, should say C-MAP/MAX Pro Charts....

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...such as C-MAX/MAX Pro Charts
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Old 17-08-2012, 03:21   #490
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Island hopper You're right and I didn't mean to imply that navionics or c-map only update their electronic charts once per year. They almost certainly update them immediately upon receiving a Notice to mariners. The reason I said it only makes sense to have you chip updated once per year is purely economical. I don't know what an update costs elsewhere, but I just had my avionics chip chip update USD 250. So there is a dollars issue for me to do this more than annually.

I know a Map shop here in Copenhagen that has people who sit with a pen and physically update charts before they are sent out. Why? Beasue these are seldom sold charts and the cost of buying new printed ones is prohibitive compared to making the notations etc. I have heard that in the states, you can go to map shop and they will print you an updated chart while you wait.

This is not true in all countries. Many Hydrographic oOffices do not make their data available on-line for download/publish of charts. This is still in the experimental stage in most countries.
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Old 17-08-2012, 17:23   #491
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So many think that hydrographic offices employ monks with goose feathers and ink pots to draw charts and update them.

So few know that they use computers instead and that the paper charts are just prints from electronic source.

And the debate goes on and on and the old & grey keep insisting that paper charts are golden while electronic equal certain doom. Only time will fix this.

cheers,
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Old 17-08-2012, 17:25   #492
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Negative. It is my considered opinion that transiting unfamiliar grounds without paper charts is simply unseamanlike. The commercial vessels on "milk runs" still operate with paper charts if that tells you anything. There is no substitute, in my thinking, for the orientation and reliability of a paper chart. If you're staying local in an area that you already know well, that's arguably a different thing and your choice.

We just returned from a 4-week trip and had a battery problem along the way. Had that not gotten sorted, the electronic charts wouldn't have helped. And the handheld backup hardly had adequate resolution... Some of the chart paks I used on my recent passage were only relevant for a day and weren't necessary while underway with my plotter. Still, I don't regret a penny I spent on having them on board.

The only thing I can *stand* to use my handheld for is latitude and longitude. That's useful, to have that dead-on accurate.
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Old 17-08-2012, 17:30   #493
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
So many think that hydrographic offices employ monks with goose feathers and ink pots to draw charts and update them.

So few know that they use computers instead and that the paper charts are just prints from electronic source.

And the debate goes on and on and the old & grey keep insisting that paper charts are golden while electronic equal certain doom. Only time will fix this.

cheers,
Nick.
I wouldn't say that paper charts are golden. I think paper and electronic both have their advantages. I do believe sailing with just electronic and not having paper as a backup is foolish.
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Old 17-08-2012, 18:15   #494
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
So many think that hydrographic offices employ monks with goose feathers and ink pots to draw charts and update them.

So few know that they use computers instead and that the paper charts are just prints from electronic source.

And the debate goes on and on and the old & grey keep insisting that paper charts are golden while electronic equal certain doom. Only time will fix this.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 17-08-2012, 18:19   #495
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Cost for 15 sets of Bellingham 2/3 charts for English channel, Europe west coast, Morocco, canaries/verde Islands, Caribbean Sea, Venezuela to Panama, Central America Pacific side, South pacific, Gilberts, Marshalls, NZ, New Guinea and the Solomons, $2681 Dollars. A wealth of Knowledge worth of charts. When I buy my electronic charts for the chart plotter for the same areas will cost more than that. Both types of charts are not perfect but it sure feels good that along with good DR, good Radar and common sense I'm comfortable to go cruising where I want to go. The cost is worth every penny of it.
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