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Old 15-08-2012, 23:01   #466
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Jbaffoh View Post
Paper charts unreliable? How? To this day they remain the most reliable of any mapping system!

60 years ago, we also had RADAR and LORAN.

How many get hit by lightening? Some people get hit several times. Some predict that every cruising boat will be stricken once in it's life.

And to comment on your previous post, I suggest you look up pricing for waterproofing and mounting iPads, not to mention the functions available in $3,000-$5,000 marine gear. Does your car GPS do RADAR? AIS? weather? Depth? Fish finding? Speed through water? Water temp? Wind? Engine instruments? No, of course not.
Paper charts in this day are very reliable, Most were done during the second world war, Where previously were non existant for most of the world.

Radar was invented during WW 2, Sorry, I made a mistake, Not 60, It was 70 years ago,

Who is going to water proof an Ipad, Its not a Marine item, It stays inside out of the weather,

My GPS does speed, weather, altimeter, Temp,

Your Radar is a separate peice of equiptment,

Who cares about the water temp, Your not in it,

My car gives out all the info on engine that I need, So does my boats engine instruments,
So what are we left with,
Fish finder, AIS, Wind speed. depth, except for the fish finder which can be incorporated,
the others are on different systems, and have there own instruments, But can be connected to the boats GPS or Plotter, Mine is,
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Old 15-08-2012, 23:06   #467
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Paper Charts updating

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Originally Posted by Capt Phil View Post
In the not so old days we used Notice to Mariners, updated light list and a new Coast Pilot to bring our paper charts up to date plus notations of errors and omissions we found along the way that we would write in from empirical observation.
So, procedure would be:

I have paper chart scale 1:40,000 for region XYZ dated Jan 2008.

Its easy for me to obtain the following info:
a) Notices to mariners
b) Updated Light List
c) ...?

Can I get a list of changes that only apply after the date of my chart?
Can I get a list of changes that only apply to my chart's region?

How do I apply the changes - use colored pens to delete existing symbols and add the new ones? Wouldn't that look messy if e.g. a reef position changes?

If you pay an agent to do it, what is the typical charge and how does he get to shift the reef neatly?
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Old 15-08-2012, 23:37   #468
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

@ Marqus, For all your Australian Notices to Mariners eNotices go here >> Australian Hydrographic Service - eNotices Service << sign up and these will be emailed to you as so as they are issued (you can select which charts you want notices for)....Or you can just go here >> Australian Hydrographic Service - Australian Notices to Mariners 2012 << and download the full issue yourself....

Information on available past notices for old charts that have not been updated is at the bottom of the page in the first link....make sure you have the current edition....Personally i would ditch them and buy new ones....

As these notices are emailed directly to you from the hydrographic office, you will receive them before the electronic chart distibutors can get them to you. It's the same onboard my workboat, the corrections for the paper charts always arrive before the corrections for the ECDIS....
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Old 16-08-2012, 00:37   #469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B

Paper charts in this day are very reliable, Most were done during the second world war, Where previously were non existant for most of the world.

Radar was invented during WW 2, Sorry, I made a mistake, Not 60, It was 70 years ago,

Who is going to water proof an Ipad, Its not a Marine item, It stays inside out of the weather,

My GPS does speed, weather, altimeter, Temp,

Your Radar is a separate peice of equiptment,

Who cares about the water temp, Your not in it,

My car gives out all the info on engine that I need, So does my boats engine instruments,
So what are we left with,
Fish finder, AIS, Wind speed. depth, except for the fish finder which can be incorporated,
the others are on different systems, and have there own instruments, But can be connected to the boats GPS or Plotter, Mine is,
Wow. You're pretty out of touch.

Who would waterproof an iPad? How about everyone who purchases waterproof cases for them. Seriously, do you live under a rock? Add a RAM mount, and you have a marinized iPad.

My point about the $3,000-$5,000 systems you mentioned, is that you can purchase the radome and other transducers along with the MFD for less than your quoted prices, and the MFD will process it all. Your car GPS will not.

Interesting that you think your car GPS will display speed through water. FYI: Speed through water is not the same as SOG.

It appears you've never used an integrated networked system based on an MFD.

You've made it clear through several posts on this forum that you know nothing about navigation, or the history of navigation. Seriously, most paper charts were done in WWII?? That's absurd. Why do you post such ignorance?
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Old 16-08-2012, 00:42   #470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B

Paper charts in this day are very reliable, Most were done during the second world war, Where previously were non existant for most of the world.

Radar was invented during WW 2, Sorry, I made a mistake, Not 60, It was 70 years ago,

Who is going to water proof an Ipad, Its not a Marine item, It stays inside out of the weather,

My GPS does speed, weather, altimeter, Temp,

Your Radar is a separate peice of equiptment,

Who cares about the water temp, Your not in it,

My car gives out all the info on engine that I need, So does my boats engine instruments,
So what are we left with,
Fish finder, AIS, Wind speed. depth, except for the fish finder which can be incorporated,
the others are on different systems, and have there own instruments, But can be connected to the boats GPS or Plotter, Mine is,
Oh, who cares about water temp? Really? Ever fish? Dive? Want to determine whether you've reached a particular current?

People pay lots of money for water temp transducers, and they cut holes in their hulls to install them. Those people seem to care. I'm one of them.
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Old 16-08-2012, 00:55   #471
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
@ Marqus, For all your Australian Notices to Mariners eNotices go here >> Australian Hydrographic Service - eNotices Service << sign up and these will be emailed to you as so as they are issued (you can select which charts you want notices for)....Or you can just go here >> Australian Hydrographic Service - Australian Notices to Mariners 2012 << and download the full issue yourself....

Information on available past notices for old charts that have not been updated is at the bottom of the page in the first link....make sure you have the current edition....Personally i would ditch them and buy new ones....

As these notices are emailed directly to you from the hydrographic office, you will receive them before the electronic chart distibutors can get them to you. It's the same onboard my workboat, the corrections for the paper charts always arrive before the corrections for the ECDIS....
Thanks for that. I have not corrected paper charts for many years. When I last did it it was before the days before the Internet and email. It was difficult to find the corrections and slow and laborious even for the smallish number of local charts.

Most crusing boats that travel long distances need a multitude of charts to cover the different areas they are sailing through. Some can be swapped and exchanged, but my question is how viable is it to keep paper charts up to date when you have an extensive map collection covering large areas, or the whole world?.
The charts that do not cover the area you are currently sailing in could be left uncorrected, but then the number of corrections builds up.

I don't know any long distance sailor that corrects their paper charts. Many local sailors do because they have less than dozen charts to correct.
With the Internet connection the corrections are easier to find is it viable to correct a large number of paper charts? How long would it take?
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Old 16-08-2012, 01:01   #472
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

This is a controversial area. There are passionate views on both sides, but let's keep the discussion friendly.
No one is going to come on your boat and force you to change the way you navigate.
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Old 16-08-2012, 01:04   #473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77

Thanks for that. I have not corrected paper charts for many years. When I last did it it was before the days before the Internet and email. It was difficult to find the corrections and slow and laborious even for the smallish number of local charts.

Most crusing boats that travel long distances need a multitude of charts to cover the different areas they are sailing through. Some can be swapped and exchanged, but my question is how viable is it to keep paper charts up to date when you have an extensive map collection covering large areas, or the whole world?.
The charts that do not cover the area you are currently sailing in could be left uncorrected, but then the number of corrections builds up.

I don't know any long distance sailor that corrects their paper charts. Many local sailors do because they have less than dozen charts to correct.
With the Internet connection the corrections are easier to find is it viable to correct a large number of paper charts? How long would it take?
Yes, it is much easier to keep a local set of charts updated, than a worldwide set. And even with weekly emails of corrections, it would be arduous to update years worth of corrections--even using the annual compilations of corrections.

BUT, the paper charts are digitized for most places, and the updates are made electronically. It should not be difficult to obtain full-sized up-to-date printed charts when you leave for a new location. Or, you could print them yourself.
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Old 16-08-2012, 01:14   #474
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Thanks. New paper charts are expensive and not many cruisers would be happy about spending the money to regularly buy new ones. New pilot books/cruising guides are bad enough.
The other problem is paper charts are often purchased from chandleries, when you are cruising out of the way places, rather than official map agents. The paper maps are often a few years old even when purchased new.

Printing the required paper charts from electronic ones is a good idea and I think self printed maps will be the way of the future for those who want a paper back up. The printed maps will be up to date.
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Old 16-08-2012, 01:15   #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77
This is a controversial area. There are passionate views on both sides, but let's keep the discussion friendly.
No one is going to come on your boat and force you to change the way you navigate.
The controversy and passion are fine. The trolls who continue to spew ignorance just to stir things up, are not fine.

There are people who make honest and valid points, and I might disagree with some. But there are also people who talk out of their a$$ without any knowledge or experience, who do not even seem to be wanting to make a valid point.

It just blows me away to hear most of the world was uncharted before WWII, when before the days of airplanes, automobiles and trains, the entire world was engaged in maritime trade. Most of the world was charted 300 years before WWII, and it was a top priority of everyone to perfect and enhance those charts long before the US Revolutionary War, much less WWII.
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Old 16-08-2012, 01:21   #476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77

Printing the required paper charts from electronic ones is a good idea and I think it will be the way of the future for those who want a paper back up. The printed maps will be up to date.
I think you're right. Now if only they made wide format printers that could be conveniently stowed in boats!

Perhaps those chandleries should think ahead, and start printing instead of stocking outdated stuff. They supply the paper, printer and ink, and you supply your chart card or subscription to online services.
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Old 16-08-2012, 01:49   #477
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Jbaffoh View Post
I think you're right. Now if only they made wide format printers that could be conveniently stowed in boats!
Yes, many cruising boats have printers (they are great for the documents officials want in different countries), but they will only print A4 size generally. My other concern is if the printer slightly changed the enlargement in only the vertical or horizontal direction. Features such as a compass rose would also be helpful, but this could be added with a suitable bit of software.

They would suffice at least for an emergancy situation for those worried about loosing all their electronics.
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Old 16-08-2012, 01:54   #478
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Thanks for that. I have not corrected paper charts for many years. When I last did it it was before the days before the Internet and email. It was difficult to find the corrections and slow and laborious even for the smallish number of local charts.

Most crusing boats that travel long distances need a multitude of charts to cover the different areas they are sailing through. Some can be swapped and exchanged, but my question is how viable is it to keep paper charts up to date when you have an extensive map collection covering large areas, or the whole world?.
The charts that do not cover the area you are currently sailing in could be left uncorrected, but then the number of corrections builds up.

I don't know any long distance sailor that corrects their paper charts. Many local sailors do because they have less than dozen charts to correct.
With the Internet connection the corrections are easier to find is it viable to correct a large number of paper charts? How long would it take?
I have never seen a cruising sailor with even 5% of the charts that we carry on the ship, we have multiple folios that require both BA and AUS corrections and on average probably takes the second mate 3 days @ 3 hrs a day to complete.

As for my own charts i never carry any that i know i wont be using, and usually when i have no further use for the ones i have onboard i sell them (never had a problem selling corrected charts in marinas or yacht clubs), as long as i stay on top of the corrections i can usually correct all of them (+/- 100 charts) in about 4 or 5 hours max, it depends on how many charts need correcting and how soon a particular correction is going to affect me. There have been plenty of times though when i have had no more than 10 or 20 corrections to do on over a 100 charts, an hour later there all done.....anyhow, you have at least a week before the next round of corrections come out (BA) so there is no rush, just dont let them build up....

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Old 16-08-2012, 02:08   #479
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Jbaffoh View Post
I think you're right. Now if only they made wide format printers that could be conveniently stowed in boats!

Perhaps those chandleries should think ahead, and start printing instead of stocking outdated stuff. They supply the paper, printer and ink, and you supply your chart card or subscription to online services.
Most sailing crossroads will have a backstreet print shop with a pile of charts of various ages to copy. Lots of the world it there just isnt anywhere to buy charts, which is where having an A4 printer onboard for printouts of harbour charts of anchorages comes into its own.
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Old 16-08-2012, 02:36   #480
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbaffoh View Post
Paper charts unreliable? How? To this day they remain the most reliable of any mapping system!

60 years ago, we also had RADAR and LORAN.

How many get hit by lightening? Some people get hit several times. Some predict that every cruising boat will be stricken once in it's life.

And to comment on your previous post, I suggest you look up pricing for waterproofing and mounting iPads, not to mention the functions available in $3,000-$5,000 marine gear. Does your car GPS do RADAR? AIS? weather? Depth? Fish finding? Speed through water? Water temp? Wind? Engine instruments? No, of course not.
Try reading it again, It has nothing to do with navigation,

It is merely pointing out the difference of what was available 60 or 70 years ago to what is available today,

What is available today will be totally replaced in another 10 years time, for what, who knows, It hasnt been invented yet, But it will,
Technology is moving forward at an incredible rate,

The car GPS was just an example,
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