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Old 15-08-2012, 13:38   #451
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Thanks Nolex. After your last post I went online to the Navionics web site to explore a little. Then made a call to their customer service department. Seems like there is a huge difference in price buying Navionics charts for your marine GPS unit compared to their charts for the iPad or Android device. Marine GPS charts start at about USD$200 for a limited area and prices go up from there. To get full EU coverage would be thousands of dollars. But they confirmed that you can buy iPad charts for the entire Med for under $100.

So have you looked at the close in detail on these charts? Do they give complete port and harbor data with all the channels, markers, etc that you would get in a detailed harbor chart?

From what I can tell you do give up some functions on these charts. It looks like they don't include GPS positioning, you can't integrate with radar, etc but considering the savings over the regular marine GPS charts I can easily live with that limitation.
They are generally excellent. It's almost a toss up which is better Navionics on my iPad, c-map on my plotter, or maxsea on my laptop. Generally I try to look at least two different systems (+ the pilot book) for passage planning I usually navigate with c-map because it's at the helm and waterproof rather than its better.

The iPad tools are more limited and there is no radar overlay ( although I believe this can now be done with some of the latest radar systems). Having a google earth overlay is cool on the iPad and sometimes very useful. ( you do need Internet conection for this however). For example I am currently anchored in a deserted spot not covered by the pilot book. There is a lot of weed in the area. I put a google earth overlay on top when selecting the anchorage and could pick a weed free area.

The Navionics application for the iPad is a bargin, buy it without hesitation.
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Old 15-08-2012, 13:42   #452
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

If you want some detail Skip give me a location, or lat and long, in europe, and I will give you a small screenshot of an anchorage, or area you are familiar with, and you can compare.
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Old 15-08-2012, 14:04   #453
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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I'm not a fan of the Navionics apps--at least the iPhone versions. But I like iNavx a lot, and I buy the Navionics charts for that. For the iPad iNavx, Navionics charts for the Med and Black Sea cost $70. However the rest of Europe will run much more.
The iPhone phone versions are lower resolution, but cheaper ( at one stage they were offering marine maps for the whole of the UK on I phone for 0.99p ( about $2).

Some crusers do prefer iNavx over Navionics, but some are vise versa. I have been meaning to download iNavx and give it a try.
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Old 15-08-2012, 14:16   #454
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

FYI, here is a Navionics chart in comparison with a NOAA raster chart for the same area. These are screen shots from my iPhone using iNavx.

The Admiral ordered a new iPad on Monday, so I'm anxious to see how everything works on that.

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Old 15-08-2012, 14:40   #455
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Originally Posted by noelex 77

The iPhone phone versions are lower resolution, but cheaper ( at one stage they were offering marine maps for the whole of the UK on I phone for 0.99p ( about $2).

Some crusers do prefer iNavx over Navionics, but some are vise versa. I have been meaning to download iNavx and give it a try.
The iPhone versions are not really lower resolution than the iPod versions--they make full use of the "retina" display resolution. However, they are hamstrung when displayed on the iPad, so you pay more for that version. There is no difference in the chart information between the two.

My complaints are that Navionics won't allow you to input waypoints based on GPS positions, or to build a route from existing waypoints. I would like to precisely transfer my Raymarine waypoints to my phone/iPad, and build routes as needed. For that, and much more, I need iNavx.

With iNavx, anything on NMEA can be sent to the phone or tablet--if you buy a NMEA wifi router.
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Old 15-08-2012, 14:44   #456
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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I appreciate your opinion. I agree to throw away paper charts if you have them is foolish. What about if you are sailing into a new area and your paper charts are limited or non existant. This is a common problem for long distance crusing sailors.
Given the low cost and ready availability of worldwide electronic charts is becoming increasingly common.
Crusing sailors often have multiple copies of these charts that can be displayed on multiple devices, generally with their own power supply.
If some of these are stored and protected from water and lightning.
would you still purchase paper charts for new crusing areas?
This is not a hypertheticall situation. Many crusing sailors are questioning the value and expense of additional paper charts.
Most of the long distance crusing sailors I meet (and I meet a lot) have not purchased any new paper charts over the last few years and I doubt they will ever prchase any more. I am sure there are exceptions, but they are in the minority.
Yes, we always have paper charts for where we are traveling and always will. Just, in my opinion the sensible thing to do. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I don't fully trust electronics.
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Old 15-08-2012, 14:53   #457
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

I am in awe of folks like Noelex 77 who have aquired the skill to annotate and drop or establish waypoints at will on electronic charts. This is no doubt the wave of the future as the reliability and redundancy of electronic navigation grows in acceptance and practice.
I thought I was doing good just putting in waypoints and being able to hook up the autopilot to the course i had plotted.
I guess I'm just getting past the curve of learning so many new and, I must admit, exciting new ways to navigate across oceans and from harbor to harbor. While some of the uncertainty and perhaps enjoyment of making landfall where and when you plan it might be missing, using technology to get you there in one piece with as many as you leave with is a big plus... cheers, Capt Phil
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Old 15-08-2012, 15:11   #458
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Paper charts may not be necessary as a navigation tool, but their presence on board should be considered necessary. Anyone who is confident enough with electronics in a marine environment so as to toss out their analog back ups is inviting disaster.
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Old 15-08-2012, 15:13   #459
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Jbaffoh View Post
FYI, here is a Navionics chart in comparison with a NOAA raster chart for the same area. These are screen shots from my iPhone using iNavx.

The Admiral ordered a new iPad on Monday, so I'm anxious to see how everything works on
Thanks for those screen shots. To me it's quite amazing that we can have two different charting systems one raster, one vector that could cover such a large area, for such a low cost.
Personally I have my doubts that paper marine charts will continue to be available beyond the next decade or so. Unless you print your own from the electronic chart.
Paper charts are already, often, just printed versions of the digital electronic charts.

An old Chinese curse was (roughly translated) "may you live in interesting times"
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Old 15-08-2012, 19:42   #460
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

This might clarify a few points,

Marine any thing is very expensive, Electronics, Maps Etc,

Ipad is not Marine, So is inexpensive, Cheap,

If the Ipad was for Marine use, It would be very expensive also,

I just bought a 7 inch GPS and wireless reverse camera for my car, $100-00 It has all the maps of Australia, Free update of maps forever, 4 GB XD card, I can plug it into my computer and down load all the info, Tell it where you want to go, and it marks out all the roads for you, And every thing else you didnt think off, Including shops, Points of interest,

The stuff that is on it is unbelievable, And it talks as well, Its also a hands free Phone, Video recorder from the front facing camera. Has all speed limits,

My waterproof GPS for the bike was $130-00, With all the same as above, Minus the camera,

If it was a Marine version, It would have been $3000-00 to $5000-00

You rich Yuachtys can afford it, The Marine versions, Hahahahahaha
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Old 15-08-2012, 20:04   #461
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

only 60 years ago, what did we have, Basically nothing to navigate with,

Sextant, Compass, and very unreliable paper charts. If they existed for the area you were in at all,

Electronic charts, computers, Ipad, GPS, were all Science Fiction, Did not exist,

Every thing these days comes with its own battery pack, can all be recharged very easily,

The chances of every thing not working at the same time is exceptionally remote, You take a heap of spare batterys for every thing any way, Or plug it in to your house battery system,

And really, How many people get hit by lightning, Putting all your gear out of action,

The way electronics are now moving into the future,

Most of the new modern stuff we are discussing here will be obsolete, as new updated products become available,
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Old 15-08-2012, 20:52   #462
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Quote:
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only 60 years ago, what did we have, Basically nothing to navigate with,

Sextant, Compass, and very unreliable paper charts. If they existed for the area you were in at all,

Electronic charts, computers, Ipad, GPS, were all Science Fiction, Did not exist,

Every thing these days comes with its own battery pack, can all be recharged very easily,

The chances of every thing not working at the same time is exceptionally remote, You take a heap of spare batterys for every thing any way, Or plug it in to your house battery system,

And really, How many people get hit by lightning, Putting all your gear out of action,

The way electronics are now moving into the future,

Most of the new modern stuff we are discussing here will be obsolete, as new updated products become available,
Paper charts unreliable? How? To this day they remain the most reliable of any mapping system!

60 years ago, we also had RADAR and LORAN.

How many get hit by lightening? Some people get hit several times. Some predict that every cruising boat will be stricken once in it's life.

And to comment on your previous post, I suggest you look up pricing for waterproofing and mounting iPads, not to mention the functions available in $3,000-$5,000 marine gear. Does your car GPS do RADAR? AIS? weather? Depth? Fish finding? Speed through water? Water temp? Wind? Engine instruments? No, of course not.
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Old 15-08-2012, 21:08   #463
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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And really, How many people get hit by lightning, Putting all your gear out of action,

,
This is really the crux of the whole debate for me.

There are those that will point out that lightning strike, multiple equipment failure and the government turning off the system as a "possibility" that must be planned for.

Many of these people can also fall into the camp of 2 liferafts, 2 SSB, 2 Spots and EPIRBs and enough spares on board to completely rebuild the boat twice while at sea.

Everyone has a risk tolerance. When one assumes a level of risk the naysayers then point out what a burden you will be to the SAR folks when that fatefull day ever comes and how irresponsible one would be not to prepare in advance.

As you said Mr. B years ago we had none of this stuff and I might point out that when you were at sea no one could find you anyway so f you had a disaster you were in deep poo.

Anyway - these threads are fun to debate but really no one changes their mind because of what is written on a forum. They may internalize the "seeds" of the discussion and at some point in the future "evolve" to a different paradigm.
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Old 15-08-2012, 22:08   #464
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Paper vs Electronic chart updates

Shades of grey. If you use paper charts with an electronic Gps (or two or three), you are really in the same class (different depth) as a boater relying on an electronic chartplotter (or two or three).

You could argue that a Gps is less likely to fail than a Chartplotter/iPad/Android, and I would agree. But you are still relying on electronics unless you have, and occasionally use, a sextant for positioning info (I don't). Even if you do 'dead reckoning', you are likely reading the electronic speed display.

Chart updates: Electronic charts are quite amenable to frequent (and even automated) updates of navigational content including official notices to mariners.
With an electronic chart, you pay the upgrade fee or subscription, and zap - it's up-to-date.

The typical cruiser's paper charts are not likely to be up-to-date, and it may not be as painless to upgrade them to "current" status.

Which leads me to pose the question: if I have a dozen 3yo paper charts and I want to get them to up-to-date status, for WHATEVER reason (not the point of this question), how do I go about it and what would it cost in my time or to my wallet?
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Old 15-08-2012, 22:18   #465
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

In the not so old days we used Notice to Mariners, updated light list and a new Coast Pilot to bring our paper charts up to date plus notations of errors and omissions we found along the way that we would write in from empirical observation.
Like who knew that the paper, raster and other electronic charting of Banderas Bay off Puerto Vallarta were off by about a mile until they actually tried to find their way in at night. I believe they are all corrected now but it was interesting doing a night landing back in the 70's and 80's!
There were several example like this, particularly in Alaska, Mexico and remote parts of the PNW. Capt Phil
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