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Old 27-07-2012, 19:16   #421
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by daddle View Post
So...what do our ever careful paper chart proponents use as a backup in the event the paper charts are lost? (e.g. Fire, flood, piracy, blown overboard, plague of insects)

I have more than one paper chart of any area I'm sailing in, at different scales.
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Old 27-07-2012, 19:17   #422
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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My favorite story like this is about the boat we heard call for Vessel Assist because their engine quit while entering the Marina del Rey channel. Vessel Assist asked the normal -how many people, life preservers, etc. All ok until they asked them to put down the anchor... there was some discussion, then they came back and said uh, we don't have an Anchor.

Now, I'm pretty understanding. People learn as they go except... 3 yrs later and they still go by with no anchor!! They belong to a local yacht club so I know they can afford it and they are not racers-so no excuse.
My favorie is the guy that called the Coast guard because thier GPS went out...the were trying to find the entrance to San Fransisco (on a clear day)...after giveing thier last known position they were instructed to "look uo" the Golden Gate bridge was right in front of them.
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Old 28-07-2012, 02:42   #423
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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It's not your brain. You still have to think.
And that my friend is the essence of navigation. My primary nav tool is my eyes, when I look at the horizon (or up at the stars). I compare it with my primary backup which is my compass. Then I use my secondary backup (charts from electronic or paper) to confirm my primary sources.

I agree with Raku- a lot of this debate is just silly. If you want to go into X dangerous harbor at night with an ebb tide be my guest, but even with a HUD (heads up display) and a cyber captain by your side your not going to be as safe as a daylight, tide right, weather right entrance.
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Old 28-07-2012, 03:29   #424
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Dunno, but your laptop will do currents, tides, moon, etc. with some of the widely available software. No internet required.
Got world tides already from opencpn but tidal currents are harder to come by. North france / south UK harmonics are here..
https://docs.google.com/a/twofoxes.c...Ddm/edit?pli=1
and WX tides for tidal height predictions here..
http://fserv.skill-club.com/get_1088_156a.html

But world tidal data would be interesting, haven't found that yet.
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Old 14-08-2012, 14:37   #425
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Negative. It is my considered opinion that transiting unfamiliar grounds without paper charts is simply unseamanlike. The commercial vessels on "milk runs" still operate with paper charts if that tells you anything. There is no substitute, in my thinking, for the orientation and reliability of a paper chart. If you're staying local in an area that you already know well, that's arguably a different thing and your choice.

We just returned from a 4-week trip and had a battery problem along the way. Had that not gotten sorted, the electronic charts wouldn't have helped. And the handheld backup hardly had adequate resolution... Some of the chart paks I used on my recent passage were only relevant for a day and weren't necessary while underway with my plotter. Still, I don't regret a penny I spent on having them on board.
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Old 14-08-2012, 15:13   #426
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

On the weekend I spent several hours running over potential tracks, harbors, marinas and spots of interest with a new boater planning a summer long trip to the PNW. I left three chart books covering Puget Sound to Vancouver, Gulf Islands and Jervis Inlet to Desolation Sound with him to familiarize himself with the lay of the land up there cautioning that he should buy a Coast Pilot, light list and up to date tide and current tables.
He had never seen paper charts before and found them invaluable as a planning and familiarization tool. I hope they don't go out of vogue soon. The added value are the pencilled notes on the charts from many years of working and cruising up there.
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Old 14-08-2012, 15:19   #427
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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The commercial vessels on "milk runs" still operate with paper charts if that tells you anything.
My understanding is commercial vessels are permitted to operate with electonic charts only providing they have approved redundant systems.


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We just returned from a 4-week trip and had a battery problem along the way. Had that not gotten sorted, the electronic charts wouldn't have helped. And the handheld backup hardly had adequate resolution
Many handheld systems have enough resolution and battery power to provide charts suitable for any trip with their own battery supply. If designing an all electronic system, multiple battery and charging sources are important. The electronic systems should have redundant backups and power supplies. This is becoming commonplace with modern crusing boats.

The backups (electonic, or paper) should be adequate for any (foreseeable) eventuality. Some boats are not equipped with this level of electronic reduandancy and conclude, correctly in their case, that paper charts are a necessary backup.
There are however a selection of modern boats that have multiple redundant battery and electonic mapping systems. I would ask owners to consider these cases, because they are becoming more common and this technologly will filter down to all crusing boats in the near future.
With 2, 3 or 4 mapping systems each with own power supply that would navigate any trip, is an all electronic mapping system adequate? Multiple systems like this are fitted now to crusing boats and will become commonplace in the near future.
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Old 14-08-2012, 15:34   #428
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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The added value are the pencilled notes on the charts from many years of working and cruising up there.
Capt Phil
You can add notes to most electronic mapping systems. Even better you can see electronic notes from other cruising sailors. This technology is still in its infancy, but I have still found it invaluable in many remote areas.
There is the added benifit of photographs and aerial views. Real time radar images can be overlayed on the chart. None of this technology is available on paper charts.
This does not make paper charts unsafe. I have sailed thousands of miles with paper charts only, but electronic charts have a lot of advantages.
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Old 14-08-2012, 15:34   #429
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Keep an eye out for lightning...
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Old 14-08-2012, 15:46   #430
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Keep an eye out for lightning...
Lightning has been raised a few times. A severe lightning strike will sink your boat, or bring down your mast, but people still worry about loosing their maps. The possibility of losing an electonic backup in a faraday cage is small and given the other consequences of a severe strike it seems trivial.
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Old 14-08-2012, 16:18   #431
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

I had to reread post number one to remember what this thread is about. My personal opinion is there's nothing wrong to have electronic charts as your primary navigation system. But to not keep your paper charts on board as a back up to me is foolish.
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Old 14-08-2012, 16:22   #432
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

How many apply Temporary and Preliminary Notices to mariners to their electronic charts ? how many even know what they are ?
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Old 14-08-2012, 16:22   #433
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Perhaps its time to start collecting old paper charts as they may become collector items at some point in the future
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Old 14-08-2012, 16:54   #434
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Perhaps its time to start collecting old paper charts as they may become collector items at some point in the future
Paper charts will still be available for a long time to come yet, maybe your grandkids might see a return on your collecting.....
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Old 14-08-2012, 17:04   #435
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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I had to reread post number one to remember what this thread is about. My personal opinion is there's nothing wrong to have electronic charts as your primary navigation system. But to not keep your paper charts on board as a back up to me is foolish.
I appreciate your opinion. I agree to throw away paper charts if you have them is foolish. What about if you are sailing into a new area and your paper charts are limited or non existant. This is a common problem for long distance crusing sailors.
Given the low cost and ready availability of worldwide electronic charts is becoming increasingly common.
Crusing sailors often have multiple copies of these charts that can be displayed on multiple devices, generally with their own power supply.
If some of these are stored and protected from water and lightning.
would you still purchase paper charts for new crusing areas?
This is not a hypertheticall situation. Many crusing sailors are questioning the value and expense of additional paper charts.
Most of the long distance crusing sailors I meet (and I meet a lot) have not purchased any new paper charts over the last few years and I doubt they will ever purchase any more. I am sure there are exceptions, but they are in the minority.
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