Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-07-2012, 16:06   #391
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,436
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Orienteering?....you mean looking at points on land, etc...then finding your position in relation to where they are on a chart (with practice you can become relatively accurate at a glance)...with sighting compass an a ruler you can be spot on.
Well...yes and no.

The land sport of Orienteering I used to participate in was running a course cross-country, checkpoint to checkpoint. We'd have a little card which we stamped with a unique marker at each point to prove we'd been there. The maps were generally 1:5000 so they showed a lot of detail. The folks that chose the route were sneaky though, put us through some very rough country and were geniuses at putting the waypoints so that one could very easily get confused; especially when under pressure. There were other little games, ones with cryptic clues for the location of the checkpoint instead of a grid reference, relays, etc. Plenty of room to test the ingenuity of the course designers, and the skill and cunning of the competitors. No matter how fit & fast or skilful with map & compass, or familiar with the area, someone always found a way to make it a challenge. There were also always dodges to beat them...not cheating, just running smart. A good way to learn. It would be interesting to sit down with some boaties and come up with something different than the old round-the-bouys tailchase; and be more attractive for a wide variety of folks and their favourite boats. Perhaps even cruisers....
__________________

__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2012, 16:14   #392
Eternal Member
 
wolfenzee's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (NW corner of Puget Sound)
Boat: 30' William Atkin cutter
Posts: 1,496
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Which is why I have one very small display. I'm not ready for my sailboat cockpit to look like the cockpit of a 747.
Small display in a moving cockpit vs. a chart big enough to spread out on the table so you can see where everything is and/or will be...small chart plotter, GPS to use in cockpit (small sized charts or chart book are also an option).
__________________

__________________
"It is better to die living than live dieing" (Tolstoy para-phrased by Jimmy Buffet)
"Those who think they know everything piss off those of us who do"
wolfenzee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2012, 16:16   #393
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
Well...yes and no.

The land sport of Orienteering I used to participate in was running a course cross-country, checkpoint to checkpoint. We'd have a little card which we stamped with a unique marker at each point to prove we'd been there. The maps were generally 1:5000 so they showed a lot of detail. The folks that chose the route were sneaky though, put us through some very rough country and were geniuses at putting the waypoints so that one could very easily get confused; especially when under pressure. There were other little games, ones with cryptic clues for the location of the checkpoint instead of a grid reference, relays, etc. Plenty of room to test the ingenuity of the course designers, and the skill and cunning of the competitors. No matter how fit & fast or skilful with map & compass, or familiar with the area, someone always found a way to make it a challenge. There were also always dodges to beat them...not cheating, just running smart. A good way to learn. It would be interesting to sit down with some boaties and come up with something different than the old round-the-bouys tailchase; and be more attractive for a wide variety of folks and their favourite boats. Perhaps even cruisers....
In my home port we started doing three island races which developed from the famous "Three Peaks Races" it has worked well.
I think your idea would serve well as part of a training/sailing school program probably at the end to test what has been taught in a very practical way. I see lots of merit in that way.
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2012, 16:21   #394
Moderator
 
nigel1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Manchester, UK
Boat: Beneteau 473
Posts: 5,181
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by conachair View Post
Slight drift but related. Being a more, err, frugal sailor, cm93 and opencpn form the electronic side of things.
So do the higher end charting system have tidal stream data included? I can get tidal heights for pretty much anywhere on opencpn which makes passage planning so easy compared with paper, but still need to hunt down some tidal diamonds on a paper chart for the velocities.
Raymarine I have using navionic charts has tidal stream data, but surprisingly, the state of the art ECDIS on my work boat does not.
On the navionic electronic charts, the tidal stream diamonds are the same as that on the paper charts, but gives the data at a glance, rather than if using paper a bit of thinking is needed.
__________________
Nigel
Beneteau 473
Manchester, UK
nigel1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2012, 16:22   #395
Eternal Member
 
wolfenzee's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (NW corner of Puget Sound)
Boat: 30' William Atkin cutter
Posts: 1,496
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
That would be nothing but a bragging contest. I will predict right now that the people who have been sailing 30 years will be better at it than the people who have been sailing 2. Although I think I know a couple of people who have been sailing for decades who would really struggle without electronics.

if the OP wanted to whack a hornet's nest with a stick, he did a good job, but I think he is the only person who agreed with the title of the thread.
I wasn't talking about doing without, just because you can. I am talking about making comfortable transition for when electronics/electrial system DOES fail.
__________________
"It is better to die living than live dieing" (Tolstoy para-phrased by Jimmy Buffet)
"Those who think they know everything piss off those of us who do"
wolfenzee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2012, 16:24   #396
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
Small display in a moving cockpit vs. a chart big enough to spread out on the table so you can see where everything is and/or will be...small chart plotter, GPS to use in cockpit (small sized charts or chart book are also an option).

Mostly what I use is a charbook that is typically half the size of the standard chart book. However, it has more charts in it, so I have the detail I need. But I also have larger rolled charts to give me the big picture.

I would not want to sail only with the chart plotter. I like having that big picture.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2012, 16:25   #397
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
I wasn't talking about doing without, just because you can. I am talking about making comfortable transition for when electronics/electrial system DOES fail.

We all know chart plotters can fail. We have no rational reason to think that the entire satellite system is going to implode, but since only one poster said to dump all the paper ... this is all getting really silly.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2012, 16:33   #398
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
I wasn't talking about doing without, just because you can. I am talking about making comfortable transition for when electronics/electrial system DOES fail.
Some people i guess drive with no spare tyre, when in trouble they simply call for help, me i like to fend for myself i even have an emergency tyre repair kit. Used both a couple of times. Not a biggie!!!

Tried hard to get my daughter to do the same but she said Dad with a mobile phone you can get roadside assistance!!!

Flat batteries, lost phone, reception permitting!!!!!!
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2012, 16:35   #399
Eternal Member
 
wolfenzee's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (NW corner of Puget Sound)
Boat: 30' William Atkin cutter
Posts: 1,496
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

The thread has evolved to explain/defend the importance of paper charts. Personally I am more comfortable looking at paper charts.
One thing that hasn't been discussed is theft...electronics are at the top of a thefts list...charts aren't worth the bother.
__________________
"It is better to die living than live dieing" (Tolstoy para-phrased by Jimmy Buffet)
"Those who think they know everything piss off those of us who do"
wolfenzee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2012, 16:38   #400
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,436
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

One thing that worries me about chart navigation single handed at night is.....how does one juggle the helm, sails and chart, without losing night vision and situational awareness, or control of the boat especially when you can't leave the cockpit?

One idea that came to me was; Since I'll have my chart table on the starboard side of the fwd companionway, how about a porthole in the cockpit bulkhead with a big lens and a rubber shroud over it like the old radar screens, so that with very faint green illumination on the chart I can see the whole chart at a glance, without leaving the cockpit, or trying to manage a bit of paper in the wet & wind. Nice low-tech solution, must try it and see. Have to watch out in strong sunlight and calm weather though: don't want to set fire to me charts....
__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2012, 16:39   #401
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Some people i guess drive with no spare tyre, when in trouble they simply call for help, me i like to fend for myself i even have an emergency tyre repair kit. Used both a couple of times. Not a biggie!!!

Tried hard to get my daughter to do the same but she said Dad with a mobile phone you can get roadside assistance!!!

Flat batteries, lost phone, reception permitting!!!!!!

In fact, she may be safer calling for help than using a jack she doesn't have much experience with and vulnerable to anyone who would come along. A case can be made for it.

And a can of "fix-a-flat" is not a bad idea. I'm not opposed to her learning how to change a tire but it really might not be all that good an idea. I was taught, by the police, to stay in my locked car and call for help as the safest option. Batteries are easily charged and there are very few places in the USA that have no reception.

Sometimes being willing to rely on someone known to be safe (ex: the Geico road assistance guy who came to help me when I was on the highway by myself with a shredded tire) was not scary at all, but I would not accept help from any strange man who happened to come along and want to help.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2012, 16:40   #402
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
One thing that worries me about chart navigation single handed at night is.....how does one juggle the helm, sails and chart, without losing night vision and situational awareness, or control of the boat especially when you can't leave the cockpit?

One idea that came to me was; Since I'll have my chart table on the starboard side of the fwd companionway, how about a porthole in the cockpit bulkhead with a big lens and a rubber shroud over it like the old radar screens, so that with very faint green illumination on the chart I can see the whole chart at a glance, without leaving the cockpit, or trying to manage a bit of paper in the wet & wind. Nice low-tech solution, must try it and see. Have to watch out in strong sunlight and calm weather though: don't want to set fire to me charts....
Autopilot....
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2012, 16:44   #403
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,767
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

paper charts are not worth the bother to steal unless you are cruising and happen to meet the man who steals paper charts--he is currently in sea of cortez, so , anyone there, be aware there is a cruiser who steals from cruisers out there....he WILL board your boat to steal em also. i saw as he was leaving mine . i ended up having to sail to la cruz sans paper charts---

there is also someone reported to have sailed to ensenada using only land maps..LOL..... the gods do watch over fools and drunks.

last time i priced used charts they were 20 to 50 dollars each. that was last year. new ones re up to 100 dollars per each in some areas. not worthy of theft??? depends on where you are sailing.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2012, 16:47   #404
Eternal Member
 
wolfenzee's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (NW corner of Puget Sound)
Boat: 30' William Atkin cutter
Posts: 1,496
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Some people i guess drive with no spare tyre, when in trouble they simply call for help, me i like to fend for myself i even have an emergency tyre repair kit. Used both a couple of times. Not a biggie!!!

Tried hard to get my daughter to do the same but she said Dad with a mobile phone you can get roadside assistance!!!

Flat batteries, lost phone, reception permitting!!!!!!
Some people stay close enough to "civilization" and tech support, ... I have heard of people making a distress call when thier GPS or radar go down and very often see vessel assist pulling in sailboats who have run out of diesel(on a nice breezy day).
__________________
"It is better to die living than live dieing" (Tolstoy para-phrased by Jimmy Buffet)
"Those who think they know everything piss off those of us who do"
wolfenzee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2012, 16:49   #405
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
Some people stay close enough to "civilization" and tech support, ... I have heard of people making a distress call when thier GPS or radar go down and very often see vessel assist pulling in sailboats who have run out of diesel(on a nice breezy day).
__________________

__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
charts

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:25.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.