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Old 20-07-2012, 01:13   #361
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
Marketing has worked very hard to push our culture into a push bottom world...
I have never heard anyone complain about that before.


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PUSH BUTTON
I think I know the marketing you were thinking of when you made the Freudian slip.
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Old 20-07-2012, 04:41   #362
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I have never heard anyone complain about that before.
Your batteries in the remote last forever hey ?!

Seriously though, i have no problem with anyone using electronic over paper as long as the individual has some idea what to do if the electronic spits the dummy.....

I do though have a problem with those that have never taken the time to learn "navigation" without the use of an electronic "aid".........you are nothing more than a liability to yourself and others that sail with you, also to those that may have to come and pull your arse out of the shiit.......why is that so hard to understand ???

To the OP, i have no doubt you could move seamlessly from electronic to traditional nav if the need arose, the problem is electronic makes it too easy for anyone to believe they are "navigating" and that they are a "navigator"....it just aint so....!

Being the owner of a Plotter/GPS does not make you a competent navigator......and that has nothing to do with been a luddite!
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Old 20-07-2012, 07:04   #363
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

If today I had to make the choice between the two I would, without question, choose paper charts. I have used them for years and they make one, IMHO, truly independent and totally self reliant. I enjoy plotting and still use a hand bearing compass. They work every time, without exception. That said, I do use GPS, with two hand held backups as just another tool, and find its depth sounder most useful, although I still carry a proper lead line with grease cup.

As I understand, and I have not read it myself, Nigel Calder is reported to have stated in one of his books that anyone who cruises the western Caribbean using only GPS will probably find themselves on a reef in a short time. When I turn on my GPS, at my dock, it places me, 120' to the west, in the street, which runs in front of my house. On the other hand, in other areas it is dead on accurate. I find that reason enough to question and be suspicious, especially in areas which I do not know.
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Old 20-07-2012, 11:29   #364
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
I'm not a member of a boating club at the moment....the lack of water hereabouts may have something to do with this....but if I were, I'd consider spicing it up by running unusual things like a nav-competition...kind of like orienteering but on water.

The principle being to stimulate the navigational skills of the members, have fun, and have an excuse to go sailing (as if one needs excuses for that). To keep it interesting and safe and fair as possible, design the course to minimise the advantages of gadgetry and faster boats, discourage cheating, and offer worthwhile prizes and hilarious penalties for various stellar demonstrations of skill, or spectacular screwups. It could also be used to spread awareness of a local area and conditions, enhance application of colregs, signalling, boat handling, testing and improving systems...and enjoying refreshments and food and company, and slagging off the bermudan multihulls. Wait, I didn't want to post that last bit...blast, how does one stop a post before it goe.......

Eh. I'd rather just sail. In addition, you'd have to have waters people weren't already familiar with. Where I am, we all know the waters well enough to rarely need either chart or plotter. In orienteering, it's much easier to set a course to challenge people.
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Old 20-07-2012, 11:33   #365
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Mr B,

you made an earlier quote that there was much more info on electronic charts than paper.

It just depends on the scale of the paper charts. Get yourself the latest chart of Port Philip Bay area and check the detail on that.

cheers

No, it really doesn't. You can have a very low scale, detailed chart, and still get more information by zooming in on a chart plotter. The advantage of paper is that in addition to important details, it lets you see the "big picture." The higher the scale, the bigger the picture.

But when it comes dotn to EXACTLY where your boat is in relation to that wreck just under the surface, only an idiot would have a chart plotter but not refer to it. Sometimes small differences can make a huge difference in the safety of your boat.

I think I'd like to see a race not of orienteering on the water, but paper only vs. chart only, and see who could sail with more precision. The notion that chart plotters have nothing to bring to the table is just absurd.
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Old 20-07-2012, 11:36   #366
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Is it more detailed than the equivant electronic one?. I am not arguing, just wondering. It's hard to compare electronic and paper charts as few people carry the latest copies of both. So a few practical comparrisons would be helpful. My only electronic maps of Port Phillip bay are old, but if you could publish a photo of a small area of detail on the paper chart someone will have the latest electronic chart and we can do a comparrison.

I do. I have a variety of scales and even a "Top Spot" fishing chart, which gives details none of my "marine" charts do.

There are details, and more easily readable since you can zoom in on them, on the chart plotter. Find a notation or symbol on the paper chart, then find it on the chart plotter and zoom in. So much easier to read, and it takes up such little space in the cockpit. it's very unlikely to be blown overboard.

You can't chart your course on it. You need the paper for that. But what you *can* do is chart your course with extreme accuracy by combining chart plotter with paper.

I'm sorry but I think the OP is lacking important knowledge if he really thinks his electronics can do everything that's worth doing. That doesn't make the chart plotter "bad."
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Old 20-07-2012, 11:38   #367
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
This sort of technology is already available for PC and tablet based charts. Updates or new charts can be downloaded directly from the Internet. Chartplotters are not quite there yet as far as I know, but you can certainly ring and get charts for different areas they simply give you an unlock key.

Paper charts can be corrected and a few posts have indicated they do this on a regular basis. That has not been my experience for long distance sailors. There are just too many charts and it's a laborious process. A few clicks of the mouse is much more practical, and practical means it actually gets done.
Sorry, but that's a foolish way to sail. Sailing IS laborious, but marking your charts is ... IMPORTANT. Worth doing.
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Old 20-07-2012, 11:42   #368
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
Electronic Chart Display and Information System.

To be true ECDIS it must meet the standards set by the International Maritime Organisation.
Other systems which display charts in electronic format, but do not meet these standards are referred to as ECS, Electronic Charts Systems, which would include Chart Plotters.

ECDIS systems must use approved electronic charts, and are also integrated with radar, AIS, echo sounder.
If a ships have two such systems, and independent of each other, and with UPS back up power, they can be excempted from carrying paper charts

It's time to get real here about things like Garmin. Garmin has that disclaimer on its opening screen to cover their butts in case some sailor uses their equipment stupidly. It is completely possible to sail using only a chart plotter.

I don't think it's wise; I would think any sailor who did it was lazy about that and probably lazy about other important things as well; but it's a useful tool.

Did you know you don't have to refrigerate mayonnaise? UNTIL you put other food in it ... it's the other food that develops food poisoning bacteria, not the mayonnaise.

And yet, the jars insist you must refrigerate after opening.

Why?

Because so many people BELIEVE that mayonnaise has to be refrigerated that if someone left their tuna salad out in the hot air for 12 hours and then ate it and got sick, they'd blame the mayo and not the tunas.

Disclaimers are put there to protect the manufacturer.
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Old 20-07-2012, 11:43   #369
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
Please don't think I am some sort of old school anti-technology curmudgeon. I love my gizmos, back in my land life I was a border line nerd.

I am just trying to make a point counter to the "If it's new i it's good of it's old it's bad" "Modern gizmos are so reliable I'll bet my life on them and not keep the systems that have worked for hundreds of years around" mindset. I blame the influence of marketing here...people are led to believe they need the "latest & greatest" and any thing else wouldn't do.

Some of the electronic nav systems are so expensive they are reserved for a select few. For some the high end electronic navigation systems are not a viable option (they exceed m annual cruising budget)

Don't blame the influence of marketing. We're all free agents and we make the choices we want to make. Only an idiot wouldn't know that the marketer will do everything it can do to get you to buy its products. We're *supposed* to be sentient beings.
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Old 20-07-2012, 11:46   #370
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
Cost would be the main overiding factor then practicality, some of the systems are quite large.....

This is the system (x2) i had on my last vessel...



If you click on the link below you will find (down the right hand side of the page) links and downloadable booklets explaining what ECDIS is and what actually makes a system ECDIS......trying to explain it in anymore detail here would take me days at the keyboard.....

http://www.transas.com/products/onboard/ns/ecdis_premium/



I use the same Transas nav program as above (recreational version, although the charts are exactly the same as the commercial version!) on my own laptop, fed by the same model Furuno GPS (GP-150) and the accuracy is the same. But a Toshiba Laptop running Windows 7 with all the other programs stuffed inside, and connected to the internet, does not meet the equipment standards for ECDIS, and so it shouldn't....

The same goes for makers of standalone chart plotters for the recreational market such as Garmin etc, it's just to cost prohibitive for them to produce equipment to IMO standards and expect the recreational boater to pay the resultant high cost that would be needed to make a profit....

ECDIS is about performance standards of all the components involved, not just the accuracy of charts.....

http://www.imo.org/blast/blastDataHelper.asp?data_id=22622&filename=A817(19 ).pdf





I agree with nigel here, and if anyone reads through the above links it explains why i agree....not aimed at anyone in particular, but if you had 'corrected' to date paper and electronic charts on board that give you conflicting information, why would you automatically believe the electronic to be correct ? if both are of the approved type they should be the same if corrected (that word again), if the electronic is not of the approved type i would be looking as to where they are obtaining there information from...but thatís just me....

As for Port Phillip Bay....the "officially approved" electronic charts on the ECDIS system on board my last ship have exactly the same info as the "officially approved" paper charts......Melbourne has been our home port for the last 26 months while working in the Bass Strait oil fields....the company i work for still requires us to carry paper charts (corrected to date) even though we are fully compliant with IMO requirements for ECDIS to go paperless....

It's a transitional period that they have insisted on until they are confident that crews are comfortable with going paperless......a decision i might add that i fully support after seeing some instances similar to that that nigel mentions above....although the second mates tend to disagree with the situation....

No one who has ever taken any navigation course would assme either to be always correct. They're guidelines. This is one reason why maritime law requires a lookout.
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Old 20-07-2012, 11:50   #371
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Is seems most of you paperless proponents never weigh anchor without two diesel mains and/or a generator running.

I think many of your opinions would change if you crossed oceans with only 40-60 gallons of fuel and you lacked space for 300+ watts of solar power. Or if your mode of propulsion exposed you to the risk of knockdowns in heavy winds--which is both common, and exposes electrical systems to the risk of failure. Or if you need to view a bigger picture than a computer screen because our mode of propulsion often does not accommodate driving down the center of a rhumb line like an automobile--plotting and tacking often requires more visible chart area at a glance than is available on the screen.

For you shallow draft floating fuel tanks who travel without heeling under 60-foot tall walls of canvas broadside to the wind, perhaps you don't need paper. But I think the rest of us do.

"Is seems most of you paperless proponents never weigh anchor without two diesel mains and/or a generator running. "

Who has said that?

ONLY YOU.

Why the need to insult someone? Do you think he or she will listen to what you have to say and take your expertise more seriously if you do so?
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Old 20-07-2012, 11:53   #372
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Well, again all I can say is every sailor I know who has hand held gps's carrys a spare and if battery powerd, extra batterys, most of them if they have Chart Plotters still carry a hand held gps!! Back ups !! Thats the name of the game back ups for just about everthing we might need !! so explain to me WHY you would leave the back up for all the chart plotters and such behind?? that just seems silly to me !!they take up a heck of a lot less room the the Storm Jib that we never use, but I still carry one ! I know Im old and still take noon and star sites and use the same type of keeping track of where I am and use DR. but we have a puter with full chart plotting and world wide charts!! but theres so many things on my old charts that you will never find on your new electronic charts!! like many legal anchorages in harbors all over the USA and things like Halibut Grounds up and down the west coast of the USA and lots of other things that can make life and such a little easier!! LOl really I feel my charts are as improtant as any other back up I can carry Just my 2 cents

What's your point? I also have spare belts and impellers, extra sails, extra lines... and (gasp) extra charts!

If it exists, it can either fail or be washed overboard.
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Old 20-07-2012, 12:01   #373
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Sorry, but that's a foolish way to sail. Sailing IS laborious, but marking your charts is ... IMPORTANT. Worth doing.
I agree corrected charts are important. I used to correct all my paper charts in the early days (although I admitt a lot of the motivation was the necessity to meet race regulations), but in those days it was about maybe 30 charts. The same charts were used regularly so the corrections were minor.

With the charts I need to cover the sailing area of the much longer distances I sail now I am not sure it is feasible to correct them. I don't know any long distance sailor that does make corrections.
The irony is it is actually more important. I am sailing into anchorages I have never been before.
Consequently the appeal of an electronic chart where at the push of button I can download updates for all of Europe in couple of minutes is strong. This sort of technology provides real and practical benefits.
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Old 20-07-2012, 12:42   #374
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

As a practical matter, why not resolve any doubts about variances in accuracy b'twn your electronic vs. paper charts by plotting your entire route on your electronic chart first, and then plot the bearing & distance for each leg displayed on the plotter onto a paper chart using your parallel rules & divider. If your waypoints & final destination match up, then wouldn't this give you some confidence that your charts are compatible, at least for that particular voyage? If so, then it seems to me the OP's original premise that it's OK to navigate via plotter only would be viable, but only because the already plotted paper charts are sitting down below safe in their waterproof containers. For the I-Haven't-Learned-To-Use-A-Sextant-Yet crowd (errr, that would include me), writing down a lat/long, avg boat speed, wind conds, current, etc. off the plotter at prudent time intervals would be necessary offshore so that basic DR principles could allow staying on course using the backup paper charts in the unlikely event of catastrophic electronic failure. It seems to me that this would safely allow 100% use of electronics with all the benefits that brings, but also have the needed backup & redundancy required to meet the rules of prudent seamanship. If the waypoints match up, it would also bring some confidence to that last, dicey approach to the anchorage via whichever type of charting one prefers.

I feel like a noob to all this compared to many of you, certainly experience-wise, but I am learning (and planning on learning the sextant, too). Please tell me what I am missing here so I'm not potentially deluding myself with this approach.
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Old 20-07-2012, 13:33   #375
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Slight drift but related. Being a more, err, frugal sailor, cm93 and opencpn form the electronic side of things.
So do the higher end charting system have tidal stream data included? I can get tidal heights for pretty much anywhere on opencpn which makes passage planning so easy compared with paper, but still need to hunt down some tidal diamonds on a paper chart for the velocities.
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