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Old 18-07-2012, 17:52   #346
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Is it more detailed than the equivant electronic one?. I am not arguing, just wondering. It's hard to compare electronic and paper charts as few people carry the latest copies of both. So a few practical comparrisons would be helpful. My only electronic maps of Port Phillip bay are old, but if you could publish a photo of a small area of detail on the paper chart someone will have the latest electronic chart and we can do a comparrison.
I am not from Port Phillip but North Qld and just using one of the smaller scaler harbour charts in Mr B's local area as a example of more detail than the very large scale ocean charts.

Agree with Island Hopper and others that there is the same information as long as you have the latest up to date notices/recent charts and use the all information sources principle.

Thesedays the GBR reef area and most Australian areas are very accurately charted but I imagine one would be taking a lot more care in many areas of the Pacific particually those known for volcanic activity.

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Old 18-07-2012, 19:41   #347
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Well, again all I can say is every sailor I know who has hand held gps's carrys a spare and if battery powerd, extra batterys, most of them if they have Chart Plotters still carry a hand held gps!! Back ups !! Thats the name of the game back ups for just about everthing we might need !! so explain to me WHY you would leave the back up for all the chart plotters and such behind?? that just seems silly to me !!they take up a heck of a lot less room the the Storm Jib that we never use, but I still carry one ! I know Im old and still take noon and star sites and use the same type of keeping track of where I am and use DR. but we have a puter with full chart plotting and world wide charts!! but theres so many things on my old charts that you will never find on your new electronic charts!! like many legal anchorages in harbors all over the USA and things like Halibut Grounds up and down the west coast of the USA and lots of other things that can make life and such a little easier!! LOl really I feel my charts are as improtant as any other back up I can carry Just my 2 cents
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Old 18-07-2012, 21:59   #348
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

My hand held GPS (with solar AA battery charger) is alot more reliable/durable than the electronics that display my electronic charts....so it is used in conjunction with paper charts as welll
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Old 19-07-2012, 02:07   #349
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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so explain to me WHY you would leave the back up for all the chart plotters and such behind?? that just seems silly to me !!they take up a heck of a lot less room the the Storm Jib that we never use, but I still carry one !
I am not advocating leaving anything behind. In my own case my nearest house is 8000 nm away so it's not practical anyway.
The paper charts I have on board cover most of the world so it is mostly an accademic and philosophical discussion for me, but not entirely I may sail to an area that is poorly covered by my paper charts on board. Do I purchase paper charts to cover these areas in detail?
For some crusers it will be a much more practical question. If local sailing not many paper charts are needed, but paper charts to cover long distance voyages in adequate detail are very expensive. Electronic charts have recently become very inexpensive, or in some cases are available at no cost. Many crusers even starting out, already have the hardware, such as multiple laptops and tablets to display these charts and act as a backups.

This is the reverse of the situation a few years ago where paper charts we're the cheaper option.

Unfortunatly for many crusing sailors cost is vital issue many sail without, what in my opinion, is vital safety gear such as liferafts and EPIRBS.
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Old 19-07-2012, 02:30   #350
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Theres no particular practical reason not to go paperless on leisure boats, I won't m but many do.

Dave
But do they?

Does anyone here sail with no chart info on paper at all? Pilot book/cruising guide has enough info to get in somewhere in so does anyone here sail with no paper at all?

I suspect the numbers having no paper at all onboard to be low, if any, interesting to know though.
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Old 19-07-2012, 02:48   #351
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Current Australian paper charts are $35-00 each and I would need a heap of them,

And a metre square or there abouts,

A XD sized card for my Garmin GPS or Plotter is $160 and covers Adelaide to Darwin including the whole East coast of Australia, It has all the information a paper chart has,

My Laptop has Cmap on it, which covers the whole of Australia, It has the same details as my paper charts, but covers a bigger area, I would have to buy a lot more paper charts to cover the same area that my Laptop covers,

I can zoom in or out on both, I can see a huge area, or just the 20 feet in front of me, Depth, etc, Its all there electronically,

I also have a hand held GPS, So far I havent even turned it on,

The original question was, are paper charts unnessary,

It is good having the lot, paper and electronic,
But how much information do you really need to carry, and if you do have it onboard, Do you actually use it, or is it just taking up room,
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Old 19-07-2012, 07:16   #352
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

How many of the Luddites insisting on using paper charts have NEVER made a mistake plotting their position and determining their course??

The ships that maintain a paper plot have the manpower to do it. A short-handed cruiser doesn't, and that's why electronic navigation is safer. Especially in the tricky bits where things are changing fast, you should NOT be spending your time with your compass and dividers--you should have your head and eyes and ears focusing on the other inputs.

Cruising in the USA, you can use free NOAA raster charts which have EXACTLY the same info as the paper versions, and Open CPN, which will put your boat exactly in the same spot on the chart as your pencil, but do it once every second and keep a track log of where you have been.

I just came through the Erie Canal, and in some sections the electronic charts put me on the dirt. So would plotting on a paper NOAA chart, as the errors are the same. That didn't bother me, because I wasn't trying to navigate in zero visibility.

What really upsets me is when some countries tell me that I'm breaking their law if I don't buy their official paper charts. Where I'm going in Canada I'm looking at over $1000 to buy paper which doesn't have any better information than I already have in the computer.
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Old 19-07-2012, 21:05   #353
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Laptops ( loaded with nav software and electronic charts)integrated with GPS make for an economic solution that the average sailor can afford. The problem being laptops are relatively delicate creatures designed for indoor terrestrial environments away from rain,glare and the "rough and tumble" cockpit area...the work best blow decks (this does not include the hyper expensive mil-spec laptops).
The most practical/cost effective method is to have small low power (mini ITX)dedicated nav computer mounted out of harms way below that can be connected via WiFi and/or Bluetooth to the cockpit.
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Old 19-07-2012, 21:26   #354
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

I was on the ICW near canaveral at ~0300 headed north. Looking for that distant green or red flashing 4 sec. I glanced down to the chart plotter and the little boat image was showing us 5 boat lengths outside the channel. glanced up to shoot a spot light on the last day mark we passed to verify position/get back in channel before we ran aground, glanced back at plotter and the boat mark was back where it should be. I almost took evasive action out of the channel even though I was in it.


I don't think they will turn off the GPS system. Too many commerical applications use it. They will just turn down the resolution big time.

I've also seen paper charts that were off also. On the same trip the paper chart the captain had showed a completely different set up at ponce inlet than was actually there. obviously inlets change often, but neither electronic or paper are fool proof.
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Old 19-07-2012, 21:38   #355
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
How many of the Luddites insisting on using paper charts have NEVER made a mistake plotting their position and determining their course??

The ships that maintain a paper plot have the manpower to do it. A short-handed cruiser doesn't, and that's why electronic navigation is safer. Especially in the tricky bits where things are changing fast, you should NOT be spending your time with your compass and dividers--you should have your head and eyes and ears focusing on the other inputs.

Cruising in the USA, you can use free NOAA raster charts which have EXACTLY the same info as the paper versions, and Open CPN, which will put your boat exactly in the same spot on the chart as your pencil, but do it once every second and keep a track log of where you have been.

I just came through the Erie Canal, and in some sections the electronic charts put me on the dirt. So would plotting on a paper NOAA chart, as the errors are the same. That didn't bother me, because I wasn't trying to navigate in zero visibility.

What really upsets me is when some countries tell me that I'm breaking their law if I don't buy their official paper charts. Where I'm going in Canada I'm looking at over $1000 to buy paper which doesn't have any better information than I already have in the computer.
I use paper charts all the time and sure I've made mistakes before, but its not that I use them exclusively it's just nice to take GPS Coordinates and transfer them onto the paper chart every now and then just to see how you are doing in the big picture, plus you can note inconsistencies on the chart and correct both paper and electronic after you anchor and if your Nav gear goes out at least your not totally blind.

The way we store the charts is in waterproof tubes from west marine, different tubes for different areas, with detailed charts for Hatteras,Charleston, The Keys, and the like, and more general charts for the rest of the coast.
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Old 19-07-2012, 22:33   #356
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

The submarine USS San Fransisco ran into an under sea mount at 30 knots because it was not on the the chart (it was on an other chart on board... just not the one they were instructed to use).
Just because electronics can be very precise and/or just because something is printed on paper is no reason not to keep an eye out...in case something isn't as it is said to be.
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Old 19-07-2012, 23:33   #357
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

In answer to the comment regarding 'Luddites' amongst all of this there may well be a percentage of people who find charts just too challenging.

Buttons are easy but setting off distances, scale and plotting courses may well be both tedious and challenging to them.

Should you suffer damage e.g. from a grounding due to an electronic 'outage' i'm sure what the investigators/assessors next question would be, and don't even doubt for a moment that the question will be asked if someone was hurt.......

I'll always use dead reckoning on any passage where i deem there is a risk factor. ie tricky shoal/reef areas, entrances and on crossings albeit on large scale with pencilled notes.

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Old 20-07-2012, 00:27   #358
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Marketing has worked very hard to push our culture into a push bottom world...
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Old 20-07-2012, 00:51   #359
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Marketing has worked very hard to push our culture into a push bottom world...
PUSH BOTTOM lol
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Old 20-07-2012, 01:03   #360
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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PUSH BOTTOM lol
PUSH BUTTON
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