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Old 17-07-2012, 02:18   #316
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

I'm not a member of a boating club at the moment....the lack of water hereabouts may have something to do with this....but if I were, I'd consider spicing it up by running unusual things like a nav-competition...kind of like orienteering but on water.

The principle being to stimulate the navigational skills of the members, have fun, and have an excuse to go sailing (as if one needs excuses for that). To keep it interesting and safe and fair as possible, design the course to minimise the advantages of gadgetry and faster boats, discourage cheating, and offer worthwhile prizes and hilarious penalties for various stellar demonstrations of skill, or spectacular screwups. It could also be used to spread awareness of a local area and conditions, enhance application of colregs, signalling, boat handling, testing and improving systems...and enjoying refreshments and food and company, and slagging off the bermudan multihulls. Wait, I didn't want to post that last bit...blast, how does one stop a post before it goe.......
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Old 17-07-2012, 02:55   #317
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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From what I have read on my GPS info, It states that Updates to the GPS will be added automatically to the charts as they are issued,

The GPS is connected to Satelites constantly when in use, So I assume it would pick up updated info from the satellites, Other than that, I dont know,

How often that is, I dont know, By whom, I also dont know,
Probably the company that makes the "C" Charts,

But a paper chart remains the same, what you have, is it, The only way to update a paper chart is to buy a new one, But does it have any new info on it than what you already have, ?????????

Some of my paper charts had info that was dated from the 2nd WW, 1940's even tho the charts were the lastest Issue and current,

There are boats out there at the moment, currently mapping the ocean depths, They would be releasing that info constantly,
Shipping would be using this latest Data, and would be paying for it, So it should filter onto every one else,

From what I gather, They are mapping the ocean depths with satellites as well,

Modern technology, Is just unbelievable, How soon we are able to access that info,
It shouldnt be too long,

Making navigation info available is a lot cheaper than cleaning up a ship wreck,
Mr B,

you made an earlier quote that there was much more info on electronic charts than paper.

It just depends on the scale of the paper charts. Get yourself the latest chart of Port Philip Bay area and check the detail on that.

cheers
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:50   #318
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Mr B,

you made an earlier quote that there was much more info on electronic charts than paper.

It just depends on the scale of the paper charts. Get yourself the latest chart of Port Philip Bay area and check the detail on that.

cheers
Thanks,
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:54   #319
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

318 replies to a question that has no answer...
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:59   #320
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Mr B,

you made an earlier quote that there was much more info on electronic charts than paper.

It just depends on the scale of the paper charts. Get yourself the latest chart of Port Philip Bay area and check the detail on that.

cheers
Is it more detailed than the equivant electronic one?. I am not arguing, just wondering. It's hard to compare electronic and paper charts as few people carry the latest copies of both. So a few practical comparrisons would be helpful. My only electronic maps of Port Phillip bay are old, but if you could publish a photo of a small area of detail on the paper chart someone will have the latest electronic chart and we can do a comparrison.
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Old 17-07-2012, 07:24   #321
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Is it more detailed than the equivant electronic one?. I am not arguing, just wondering. It's hard to compare electronic and paper charts as few people carry the latest copies of both. So a few practical comparrisons would be helpful. My only electronic maps of Port Phillip bay are old, but if you could publish a photo of a small area of detail on the paper chart someone will have the latest electronic chart and we can do a comparrison.
As far as I am aware, "official" electronic charts contain the same info as the latest "offical" paper charts. By "official", I mean that they meet IMO standards.
On my ship we have both electronic charts, and paper charts. The detail is the same.
The advantage with electronic vector charts (or this could be a disadvantage) is that various layers of information can be removed.
Other advantageous are that safe navigation limits can be set, i.e. depth areas.
An approved ECDIS is also able to check the planned route for navigation dangers close to or on the route.
A big advanage with electronic charts is the ease of correction. We get corrections sent in a data file over satellite, which is transferred to a memory stick, then installed on the chart systems. Corrections for paper charts are also sent in electronic format, but then have to be displayed, printed, and copied to the paper chart. How accurate that is depends on the person doing the corrections.
You would think that this would make navigation much safer.
Couple of months ago, the relief crew on my tug departed the port of Fredrikshaven, with the route entered on the ECDIS. It transpired that no one bothered to really check the route, or question the fact that the route deviated from the recommended track. Nor did they bother to compare draught with charted depth, or even bother to consult a tide table. End result was a boat drawing 7.9 meters trying to navigate in a water depth of 7.8m. They sucked up a concrete block through one of the kort nozzles and wrecked a very expensive prop, and spent a week in dry dock.
When questioned about this, not one of the navigators on board, knew how to work the ECDIS properley. Had they done so, and used safe depths, route check etc, this would not have happened.
I was gob smacked that they all kept their jobs.

I still like paper charts, but thats probably an age thing, I'm used to them, but the ECDIS is a fantastic tool if used correctly.
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Old 17-07-2012, 07:34   #322
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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the ECDIS is a fantastic tool if used correctly.
This device has been mentioned before. Could someone explain what this is, what the acronym stands for, and how it differs from the chartplotters common on recreational vessels?

Thanks!
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Old 17-07-2012, 07:42   #323
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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This device has been mentioned before. Could someone explain what this is, what the acronym stands for, and how it differs from the chartplotters common on recreational vessels?

Thanks!
Electronic Chart Display and Information System.

To be true ECDIS it must meet the standards set by the International Maritime Organisation.
Other systems which display charts in electronic format, but do not meet these standards are referred to as ECS, Electronic Charts Systems, which would include Chart Plotters.

ECDIS systems must use approved electronic charts, and are also integrated with radar, AIS, echo sounder.
If a ships have two such systems, and independent of each other, and with UPS back up power, they can be excempted from carrying paper charts
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Old 17-07-2012, 09:17   #324
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

The next generation GPS chart plotters will automatically update charts as soon as unit returns to cell. range.The cruising guides by Blue latitude press for Mexico area are a necessity.I hear that the Mexican navy has resurveyed most of Mexican west coast and new charts will be available soon.
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Old 17-07-2012, 09:30   #325
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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The next generation GPS chart plotters will automatically update charts as soon as unit returns to cell. range.The cruising guides by Blue latitude press for Mexico area are a necessity.I hear that the Mexican navy has resurveyed most of Mexican west coast and new charts will be available soon.
This sort of technology is already available for PC and tablet based charts. Updates or new charts can be downloaded directly from the Internet. Chartplotters are not quite there yet as far as I know, but you can certainly ring and get charts for different areas they simply give you an unlock key.

Paper charts can be corrected and a few posts have indicated they do this on a regular basis. That has not been my experience for long distance sailors. There are just too many charts and it's a laborious process. A few clicks of the mouse is much more practical, and practical means it actually gets done.
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Old 17-07-2012, 09:39   #326
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Electronic Chart Display and Information System.

To be true ECDIS it must meet the standards set by the International Maritime Organisation.
Other systems which display charts in electronic format, but do not meet these standards are referred to as ECS, Electronic Charts Systems, which would include Chart Plotters.

ECDIS systems must use approved electronic charts, and are also integrated with radar, AIS, echo sounder.
If a ships have two such systems, and independent of each other, and with UPS back up power, they can be excempted from carrying paper charts
Thank you for that.

I take it that this system is reserved -- based on cost or otherwise -- for commercial vessels. Apart from the redundancy, I'm curious what presumably makes it that much more reliable? Accuracy of the charts? The manner in which it's physically wired into the boat? As previously mentioned, some if not most of the added cost could be due to liability and/or the expense of having it approved, presumably by some gov't or gov't-sanctioned agency. There are some (more $$$) plotters & nav software available to the recreational world that seem to be considered more commercial-grade. Furuno & MaxSea come to mind, but it's also possible I really don't know what I'm talking about. With the inevitable trend (like it or not) being towards more reliance on plotters, it just seems that standardization would be desirable. Can't see why accuracy & reliability on recreational vessels plying the oceans would be any less essential.
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Old 17-07-2012, 21:11   #327
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Please don't think I am some sort of old school anti-technology curmudgeon. I love my gizmos, back in my land life I was a border line nerd.

I am just trying to make a point counter to the "If it's new i it's good of it's old it's bad" "Modern gizmos are so reliable I'll bet my life on them and not keep the systems that have worked for hundreds of years around" mindset. I blame the influence of marketing here...people are led to believe they need the "latest & greatest" and any thing else wouldn't do.

Some of the electronic nav systems are so expensive they are reserved for a select few. For some the high end electronic navigation systems are not a viable option (they exceed m annual cruising budget)
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Old 17-07-2012, 21:55   #328
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Please don't think I am some sort of old school anti-technology curmudgeon. I love my gizmos, back in my land life I was a border line nerd.

I am just trying to make a point counter to the "If it's new i good of it's old it's bad" "Modern gizmos are so reliable I'll bet my life on them and not keep the systems that have worked for hundreds of years around" mindset. I blame the influence of marketing here...people are led to believe they need the "latest & greatest" and any thing else wouldn't do.

Some of the electronic nav systems are so expensive they are reserved for a select few. For some the high end electronic navigation systems are not a viable option (they exceed m annual cruising budget)
I think you're some sort of old school anti-technology curmudgeon. Just kidding! Truth be told, I'm actually quite envious of sailors like you who presumably started out long before the age of gizmo's. Although some of you have nevertheless embraced the latest technology, it is with the confidence and peace of mind that can only come from practicing the basics for so long. Although I love my electronics and have also learned the "old school" techniques as backup, I fear that I won't have the skills & experience if/when I may need it most.

Good point about some people getting seduced into buying the latest & greatest. Fortunately one can now purchase a small, portable Garmin or other such device that will do most of what many expensive plotters can do at a fraction of the price, to say nothing of how easy it is to bring chart plotting onto an existing laptop.
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Old 17-07-2012, 22:11   #329
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

It is this need for the late & greatest that makes it possible for us "po' sailors" to be able afford the not so latest gizmos that go on the used market when someone upgrades (example: my Ray Marine SL-72 radar, complete $125).
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Old 17-07-2012, 22:14   #330
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

If there is one thing I learned in TNAV it is that PAPER CHARTS ARE ALWAYS TO BE USED, otherwise you will end up in a hell where the devil and his minions look like Coast Guard Admirals and lawyers.
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