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Old 16-07-2012, 15:56   #301
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by stevewrye View Post
I like to put wind barbs on the chart of reporting boats in the right locations because you can get a different prospective of what is happening around you even two or three hundred miles distance. Nice to know where everyone else is or was last report, also in case there is an emergency.

One more thing, I'm going to give the grand kids those charts and logs someday and hope they learn the story that was told. Maybe someday they will follow our journeys in their own boats. Of course with new and up dated charts.
You can do similar things on a lot of the computer, or tablet based charts. Marks and long notes or symbols are no problem, the touch screens on tablets means that freehand drawing should be available soon,
When fellow crusers visit the boat we often discuss anchorages. I used to make notes on the pilot books, but lately I have started to use the iPad, particularly for locations further away where it becomes tedious to swap between pilot guides of different countries.
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Old 16-07-2012, 16:06   #302
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
As a Rank Amateur and Total Novice to Navigation,

I didnt do too bad, I got myself here from Fiji, So I appear to know a little about it,
I dont want to be a whizz kid, just enough to get me where I am going safely,

And what I have on board does that just fine, And with the Laptop with a GPS as back up, Its more than enough for me,


Cheers,
Brian,
G'Day Brian and all,

Brian, we have discussed this before, but the above and your earlier and longer post have pushed my buttons yet again.

Your precious electronic chartplotter may have gotten you to the shores of Australia from Fiji (not 3000 miles and not across three oceans, BTW) but if you had referenced a nasty old paper chart in Alan Lucas's "Cruising the NSW Coast" you might not have lost your boat at Broughton Island. The book may not be connected to satellites nor the internet, but if you had followed the advice printed there and anchored in the recommended spot you would not have swung into the beach when the wind shifted. Further, if you had read his (printed on paper) advice about weather conditions in the area you would not have been surprised by the wind shift, which far from being an "unforecast storm" was the expected shift as a front moved past.

And then your passage through the reefs in Fiji, and then later through some unidentified hazards further west... You have related going in circles whilst your GPS was not operating correctly, and passing through gaps in the dark and other adventures of a similar nature. All of this relying upon electronic charts that were of unknown accuracy.

Somehow, none of this seems congruent with "I dont want to be a whizz kid, just enough to get me where I am going safely,

And what I have on board does that just fine".

Frankly, I don't care how you choose to navigate you vessel. However, I object to misleading statements that could possibly cause other newbie sailors to follow in your (to me) misguided footsteps.

None of this diatribe means that I do not use and appreciate electronic charting, for I gladly do so. When available, I utilize Google Earth and such aids. I also carry and use paper charts (many of considerable antiquity, and woefully behind in corrections), cruising guides, weather interpretation information and whatever other sources of navigational guidance I can think of.

We are all at risk at sea, especially when traversing remote and unfamiliar waters. I believe that using all the help that is available is prudent seamanship.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 16-07-2012, 16:26   #303
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
referenced a nasty old paper chart in Alan Lucas's "Cruising the NSW Coast"
Crusing the NSW coast is a great book.
I think pilot books are a great source of information, where available, and are essential, or at least almost so.
However I think it's worth distinguishing between paper charts and pilot books, the two are quite separate in my view.
We are already starting to see some electronic pilot books and with the possibility of adopting an open format and instant updates like Wikipedia, I suspect the electronic forms will be superior. Sailing WiKi is already a good resource.

In the meantime I agree pilot books are needed and at the moment that means mostly paper books.
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Old 16-07-2012, 16:26   #304
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Crossing the gap in the reef coming out of Fiji at midnight, My life is in the hands of a damned electronic Gizmo, That I dont even know if its working properly or not, Brian it isn't great to navigate reef at night it's simply asking for trouble, no chart is accurate enough.

A paper chart will do none of these things, They are handy if you can see something, From your electronic chart you need to plot onto your paper chart your position at intervals that suit the territory you are in. When "murphy" strikes it's so comforting to refer to your chart which shows you your position 10 mins or 2 hours ago, it's just commonsense.

But useless if you cant, Think about aircraft 20 years ago on a moonless night, they couldn't see a thing yet with Dead Reckoning, Paper charts and instruments they navigated there way through safely
Good luck....
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Old 16-07-2012, 16:42   #305
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Crusing the NSW coast is a great book.
I think pilot books are a great source of information, where available, and are essential, or at least almost so.
However I think it's worth distinguishing between paper charts and pilot books, the two are quite separate in my view.
We are already starting to see some electronic pilot books and with the possibility of adopting an open format and instant updates like Wikipedia, I suspect the electronic forms will be superior. Sailing WiKi is already a good resource.

In the meantime I agree pilot books are needed and at the moment that means mostly paper books.
Paper charts and Pilot books are joined at the hip, any navigational officer worth his salt will attest to this. When passage planning both charts and books share the same table...
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Old 16-07-2012, 16:46   #306
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Crusing the NSW coast is a great book.
I think pilot books are a great source of information, where available, and are essential, or at least almost so.
However I think it's worth distinguishing between paper charts and pilot books, the two are quite separate in my view.
We are already starting to see some electronic pilot books and with the possibility of adopting an open format and instant updates like Wikipedia, I suspect the electronic forms will be superior. Sailing WiKi is already a good resource.

In the meantime I agree pilot books are needed and at the moment that means mostly paper books.
G'Day Nolex,

Point taken... books and charts are indeed separate. And, the concept of on-line cruising guides or wikis has some merit as well. However, the anonymous and open source concept leaves me a bit worried. With Alan's books I KNOW that he has personally verified every sounding, hazard or feature that he reports, and from some years of usage and of knowing Alan I trust him.

The same can never be true of the wiki-type of source.

I think that the Active Captain (I think I have that right) site is trying that even as we speak, and it will be interesting to see how it develops. As I understand it, it is a bit parochial in coverage as of now, but undoubtedly this sort of device will grow in time.

Meanwhile there are some "electronic" cruising guides available. Some are but images of printed media, but others (ones for Vanuatu and New Caledonia come to mind) utilize the quick access features of computer databases and great graphics to present their info. They are detailed and kinda fun to use, but are pretty expensive as of now. They also do not allow personal annotation, and the scribbled notes in our printed guides are IMO priceless. Info garnered over the years, both from our own explorations and from trusted friends efforts, have been entered on the margins and with sticky notes, etc, and we refer to them all the time.

But, as you say, this is extraneous to the subject of this thread, and I apologize for leading us astray.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 16-07-2012, 17:02   #307
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

I'm with you Island Hopper... paper charts and pilots do go hand in hand regardless of where you're sailing or passage making. The most valuable thing is the list of notations on previous passages written in about anchorages, uncharted hazards, phone #'s of folks on the beach along the way, especially interesting counter currents experienced both good and bad, etc. A previous poster mentioned that with the advent of tablets, notes like these can be made to supplement electronic charts... seems like a good idea and blends the new with the old technology easily.
Just a comfort thing having a line on a paper chart for this old salt... cheers, Capt Phil
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Old 16-07-2012, 17:27   #308
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

I think people need to distinguish between a Pilot Book and a Cruising Guide, while both supply information in a similar vein one is infinitely more detailed and designed purely to be used alongside the chart. The Cruising Guide is basically the recreational version of the official Pilot Books, but it is still good practice to consult one when planning your passage, a lot of the information contained is designed for just that....

Compare the Australian Pilot Vol lll (NP 15) and Alan Lucas’s Cruising the Coral Coast, the differences in the information supplied is unmistakable......
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Old 17-07-2012, 00:49   #309
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Boat on the rocks
Aint no surprise
Just pour me a drink
And tell me some lies


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Old 17-07-2012, 00:52   #310
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

BTW- I think you guys have been trolled.
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Old 17-07-2012, 01:00   #311
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BTW- I think you guys have been trolled.
I certainly hope so.
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Old 17-07-2012, 01:13   #312
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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But, as you say, this is extraneous to the subject of this thread, and I apologize for leading us astray
No need to apologise I think the point about pilot guides is important.
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Old 17-07-2012, 01:21   #313
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
Paper charts and Pilot books are joined at the hip, any navigational officer worth his salt will attest to this. When passage planning both charts and books share the same table...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Phil View Post
I'm with you Island Hopper... paper charts and pilots do go hand in hand
I agree with these sentiments, but would substite "chart" for "paper chart"
A pilot guide can be used with an electronic chart for passage planning or indeed navigation when coming into an anchorage. The pilot often has the greatest and most acurate detail.
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Old 17-07-2012, 01:34   #314
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
I think people need to distinguish between a Pilot Book and a Cruising Guide, while both supply information in a similar vein one is infinitely more detailed and designed purely to be used alongside the chart. The Cruising Guide is basically the recreational version of the official Pilot Books, but it is still good practice to consult one when planning your passage, a lot of the information contained is designed for just that....

Compare the Australian Pilot Vol lll (NP 15) and Alan Lucas’s Cruising the Coral Coast, the differences in the information supplied is unmistakable......
There is some differences in terminology in different parts of the world. In some countries non official publications written by private authors are called crusing guides. In most countries they are known as pilot guides.

When I refer to "pilot guides" I mean both crusing guides and official pilot books although the privately written "crusing guide" is generally far more useful for yachts.
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Old 17-07-2012, 01:49   #315
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

The only thing in a GPS that is constantly updated is your position (even he accuracy on that varies on conditions).
I have two sextants, two GPSs, electronic charts for BC,all US and western Central America (except my laptop just died) and am building an inventory of paper charts. I love all my electronic gizmos...but am prepared in case they fail.
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