Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 16-07-2012, 02:35   #286
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Paper Tiger 14 foot, Gemini 105MC 34 foot Catamaran Hull no 825
Posts: 1,616
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
Could you please expand on this a bit Mr B......
From what I have read on my GPS info, It states that Updates to the GPS will be added automatically to the charts as they are issued,

The GPS is connected to Satelites constantly when in use, So I assume it would pick up updated info from the satellites, Other than that, I dont know,

How often that is, I dont know, By whom, I also dont know,
Probably the company that makes the "C" Charts,

But a paper chart remains the same, what you have, is it, The only way to update a paper chart is to buy a new one, But does it have any new info on it than what you already have, ?????????

Some of my paper charts had info that was dated from the 2nd WW, 1940's even tho the charts were the lastest Issue and current,

There are boats out there at the moment, currently mapping the ocean depths, They would be releasing that info constantly,
Shipping would be using this latest Data, and would be paying for it, So it should filter onto every one else,

From what I gather, They are mapping the ocean depths with satellites as well,

Modern technology, Is just unbelievable, How soon we are able to access that info,
It shouldnt be too long,

Making navigation info available is a lot cheaper than cleaning up a ship wreck,
__________________

__________________
Mr B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-07-2012, 03:30   #287
Senior Cruiser
 
IslandHopper's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bundaberg Queensland/Lake Bolac Victoria, Australia
Boat: 45ft Ketch
Posts: 1,195
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
From what I have read on my GPS info, It states that Updates to the GPS will be added automatically to the charts as they are issued,

The GPS is connected to Satelites constantly when in use, So I assume it would pick up updated info from the satellites, Other than that, I dont know, Incorrect! you are required to obtain the updates and install them yourself......your charts are out of date!....i am assuming your "C" Charts are infact C-MAP, if so updates are released twice a year...

How often that is, I dont know, By whom, I also dont know,
Probably the company that makes the "C" Charts, See Above..

But a paper chart remains the same, what you have, is it, The only way to update a paper chart is to buy a new one, But does it have any new info on it than what you already have, ????????? Completely incorrect, Notices To Mariners (Chart Corrections) are issued weekly for BA Charts and fortnightly for AUS Charts, easily downloaded and applied....

Some of my paper charts had info that was dated from the 2nd WW, 1940's even tho the charts were the lastest Issue and current, So do your electronic charts!

There are boats out there at the moment, currently mapping the ocean depths, They would be releasing that info constantly,
Shipping would be using this latest Data, and would be paying for it, So it should filter onto every one else, Hydrograpic Offices have been doing this for well over a 100 years, Australia's has been going since 1920, this is where the NTM's come from that should be applied to charts, both paper and electronic in a timely fashion!

From what I gather, They are mapping the ocean depths with satellites as well,

Modern technology, Is just unbelievable, How soon we are able to access that info,
It shouldnt be too long,

Making navigation info available is a lot cheaper than cleaning up a ship wreck,
That will do for now other than to respectfully suggest you go and learn about navigation, both electronic and paper....

By the way, click here >> Updating & Upgrading - Jeppesen Marine
__________________

__________________
IslandHopper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-07-2012, 03:34   #288
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
How many times do you ask someone a question and instead of trying to think of an answer they check their smart phones

Actually, I have one friend who does that -- and guess what? He comes up with (gasp) USEFUL INFORMATION!!!

So now our phones are as bad as those agents of the devil -- chart plotters. I would SO much rather have accurate information than something someone just "thought up."

They didn't have smart phones back when I was a child and we had to walk to school in two feet of snow every day -- uphill both ways, doncha know ...

We turned to ... encyclopedias.

Interesting thing about encyclopedias today. Often by the time they're printed, they're out of date.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-07-2012, 03:36   #289
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
This is reactionary nonsense, in the past I had to resort to books dictionaries, encyclopaedias etc, now I get an answer that informs my opinion much quicker, hence I can look up far more then before.

Dave

THANK YOU.

Just two days ago someone used not his smart phone but his Ipad to add to a discussion about traveling through Lake Okeechobee. Not only did this person provide very useful information but it included very useful photos from Google Earth. Yeah, he should take that waste of time piece of tech and throw it in the marina!
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-07-2012, 03:43   #290
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I think this is a very valid statement. I like to review all the sources of information even it's just a 20 nm day sail. I am almost always sailing to a new location that I have not been before, and the anchorages around here are very poorly mapped, with depths completely wrong. New marinas have been built.
As well as pure navigation information I live on the yacht so I need other practical details. Is there a shop within walking distance for supplies, can I get butane, petrol for the dingy. Where are my sailing friends? Are there interesting sights on the island?. These are some of the day to day questions of a cruising boat.

One difficulty is there are becoming too many sources of information.
3 pilot books (one of which is in German only), c-maps, navionics, maxsea google earth, the internet and paper charts.

With this explosion of information in some circumstances I have to be selective even though I enjoy planning where we are going and imagining what a new anchorage will be like. Of the above forms of information paper charts are one of the less useful ( although the pilot books are paper and these are one of the best and most vital sources of information)

Of course. Google Earth won't be much use at all when you're 100 NM from any land mass in the middle of an ocean. But a picture's worth a thousand words when it comes to considering the risks involved in my next adventure, which will include crossing Lake Okeechobee.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-07-2012, 08:00   #291
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Paper Tiger 14 foot, Gemini 105MC 34 foot Catamaran Hull no 825
Posts: 1,616
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
That will do for now other than to respectfully suggest you go and learn about navigation, both electronic and paper....

By the way, click here >> Updating & Upgrading - Jeppesen Marine
As a Rank Amateur and Total Novice to Navigation,

I didnt do too bad, I got myself here from Fiji, So I appear to know a little about it,
I dont want to be a whizz kid, just enough to get me where I am going safely,

And what I have on board does that just fine, And with the Laptop with a GPS as back up, Its more than enough for me,

And I now have an Ipad as well,

But thanks any way, There's a few things there I have learnt from you,

Cheers,
Brian,
__________________
Mr B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-07-2012, 08:33   #292
Senior Cruiser
 
s/v Beth's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
Boat: Valiant 40 (1975)
Posts: 4,066
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Can we pull up beside you and ask for directions
Yeah, I be in the little dodad next to your boaty looking icon in the middle of your chartplotter ! (with it on high resolution and AIS so nothing else will be showing). You can look over at my radar overlay and see if your boat looks different! And we can measure with the little graphic dotted line to see how close our boats are!
I don't see how they sailed before electronics!

This is just too much fun.
__________________
s/v Beth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-07-2012, 08:57   #293
Senior Cruiser
 
s/v Beth's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
Boat: Valiant 40 (1975)
Posts: 4,066
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

What is sad it that, even though I am a firm believer in paper charts, I do have all that crap on my boat. I guess I will have to go with the "use all available types of navigation" crowd. If I end up with three pencils tied together in a liferaft (AKA "Adrift") so be it.
__________________
s/v Beth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-07-2012, 09:07   #294
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,436
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Well there goes my gadget Sextant. My gadget pelorus , my gadget Marine chronometer, my gadget barometer , my gadget etc etc. gadgets have been part of navigation since Henry was a lad.

Dave
I don't like you, gbn. Look at what I said...."gadgets don't make a navigator" does not mean a navigator does not use them...he should just be aware of the limitations, and be wary of becoming reliant on something that can be removed from him very quickly, and have backups. Would Cook or Bligh have loved to have a plotter and gps? Perhaps...were they glad to have the best equipment available at the time? Yes. Would they have done very well without them, if forced to do so? Quite likely. The problem with the gadgets is that it makes it all too easy for folks to go places where without them, they are in serious trouble. The plotters are based on charts, the gps is under the control of folks that turn it off or skew it, and can be jammed by folks with mischief in mind. Glonass likely the same. Have these things if you like, but don't rashly declare charts are superflous because they are chalk and cheese. Some might not be able to afford the electronics, others might not like them for their dubious benfits other than convenience. If you can afford them...bully for you! But please don't shatter other's confidence and give them the impression their more basic gear is useless, when it is in fact more to be relied upon than the electronics. As I said at the start, I don't like you, gbn;we would not get far on a boat together, but since this is a forum I'm putting you on ignore....you have the same freedom. I bid you good day.
__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-07-2012, 09:57   #295
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B
Being new to water sailing">Blue water sailing, Paper charts, GPS, Navigation, ETC, Even a boat of this size, It was all brand new to me,

I had to learn the lot in a very very short time, Like a day and a half, and then I was totally on my own,

I took six weeks learning all I could about my boat and the miriad whizz bangs and all other electronic gizmo's on it, Most of which, I didnt even know the names of, including the mass of Paper charts on board,

I had no preconcieved idea's on what was good or bad, This is what Ive got and its use is up to me, There is no one else to hold my hand,

I have found the paper charts Are lacking in the exceptional detail the GPS has, especially when you zoom it in real close to where you are,
The GPS is constantly updated as information is released and transmitted by satellite,

How old is the latest paper chart that is just released, By the time it is printed and distributed and delivered to your hot little hand,

I can travel a max of 200 miles in a day, How much more area do I need to see, whether paper or GPS, I already have the broad picture of where I am going in my head,

In the crappiest whether, Night time, I cant see a damn thing, The GPS pinpoints exactly where I am, It is exceptionally accurate, I dont need to see where I am going, The GPS does it for me, It also shows the little submerged rocks that I have miss,

Make no doubt about it, Sailing Blind is the most scariest and hair raising thing I have ever done in my life time, Its not recommended under any circumstance, Especially in unknown waters, My skin still crawls just thinking about it,

Crossing the gap in the reef coming out of Fiji at midnight, My life is in the hands of a damned electronic Gizmo, That I dont even know if its working properly or not,

A paper chart will do none of these things, They are handy if you can see something, But useless if you cant,

3 oceans and 3000 Nm later, GPS and paper charts, You can stick the paper charts, They are just so outdated and uninformative,

If your close to shore, less than 12 miles, Google Maps or Google Earth will do the same as a paper chart any way, and a sight more accurate,

A Laptop running on battery, will cover you if your house batterys going flat, Just have a GPS dongle connected with a USB, Does the same as a Full Main Boat GPS, I also have a little Solar panel that runs only the Laptop,

A lightning strike will possibly kill you as well as your electrics, And paper charts are hard to read if they are drowned, My paper charts all went into the bin, just a soggy mess, I still have my GPS, It was high enough to not get wet,

I was running a Garmin "C" chart in my GPS and found it dead Accurate, Except south of the Burnett River entrance in Qld, when it said I was sailing up the beach, I was half a mile off shore, But that was daytime and I could see, Thank goodness,

Coming into Forster, 2-00 AM in the morning, Sailing Blind, When I could see, I was dead in the middle of the Channel were The GPS said I was, Those rock walls fifty feet either side of me were not inviting, especially in a tide running out at about 8 Knots,

This is only my opinion, What others think, Is entirely up to them and the safety of their boat,

Cheers,
Brian,
Wow.

I use a few GPS chart plotters for convenience, and I enjoy playing with them. But I also maintain hourly DR plots and fixes on paper charts.

But you are very wrong about nearly everything you've said in all your posts here--especially about paper charts. My comments relate to the US, but most major maritime nations have similar systems in place.

1. In the US, it is possible to obtain freshly printed NOAA charts that are up to date within a week of the printing.

2. The USCG issues weekly Notices to Local Mariners and Changes to Light Lists--they'll email them to you every Wednesday. It's not difficult to keep your charts updated if you do it periodically.

3. "Paper" charts are available on waterproof "paper." You can write on them, erase your markings, and they're plastic so they don't get soggy and rot.

4. Paper charts are NOT worthless in zero visibility, as long as you maintain DR plots and running fixes.

That's not to say you should rely on them to get you through a narrow cut in a reef in the middle of the night, but you shouldn't be relying on an electronic chart for that, either--unless you know for a fact it accurately portrays that cut. Eyeballs, ears, and the ability to read the water are best here.

Frankly, if you don't know the basics of navigation and piloting, you should not be running a boat. Sure, a plotter with GPS can get anyone where they're going under perfect conditions, and it sounds like you were lucky as hell. But it also sounds like you still know absolutely nothing about navigation, electronic systems, paper, or anything else that you could have used to get yourself out of a sticky situation.

If you only aspire to learn "enough to get by" in perfect conditions, please don't ask for the inevitable rescue.
__________________
Jbaffoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-07-2012, 10:44   #296
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 2,961
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbaffoh View Post

I use a few GPS chart plotters for convenience, and I enjoy playing with them. But I also maintain hourly DR plots and fixes on paper charts.
__________________
Exile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-07-2012, 10:59   #297
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbaffoh View Post
Wow.

I use a few GPS chart plotters for convenience, and I enjoy playing with them. But I also maintain hourly DR plots and fixes on paper charts.

But you are very wrong about nearly everything you've said in all your posts here--especially about paper charts. My comments relate to the US, but most major maritime nations have similar systems in place.

1. In the US, it is possible to obtain freshly printed NOAA charts that are up to date within a week of the printing.

2. The USCG issues weekly Notices to Local Mariners and Changes to Light Lists--they'll email them to you every Wednesday. It's not difficult to keep your charts updated if you do it periodically.

3. "Paper" charts are available on waterproof "paper." You can write on them, erase your markings, and they're plastic so they don't get soggy and rot.

4. Paper charts are NOT worthless in zero visibility, as long as you maintain DR plots and running fixes.

That's not to say you should rely on them to get you through a narrow cut in a reef in the middle of the night, but you shouldn't be relying on an electronic chart for that, either--unless you know for a fact it accurately portrays that cut. Eyeballs, ears, and the ability to read the water are best here.

Frankly, if you don't know the basics of navigation and piloting, you should not be running a boat. Sure, a plotter with GPS can get anyone where they're going under perfect conditions, and it sounds like you were lucky as hell. But it also sounds like you still know absolutely nothing about navigation, electronic systems, paper, or anything else that you could have used to get yourself out of a sticky situation.

If you only aspire to learn "enough to get by" in perfect conditions, please don't ask for the inevitable rescue.
+1
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-07-2012, 15:08   #298
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Note to self check with Raymarine to see if i can get a multi-hull boaty looking icon, this (large) mono shaped one is just not right!!!!!
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-07-2012, 15:10   #299
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
That will do for now other than to respectfully suggest you go and learn about navigation, both electronic and paper....

By the way, click here >> Updating & Upgrading - Jeppesen Marine
As always correct info.....
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-07-2012, 15:38   #300
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Hood River Or
Boat: Boereal 44
Posts: 189
Re: Paper charts now unnessary

I guess I could not go anywhere without charts. We use Bellingham 3/4 charts, black and white. We spend lots of time going over them before we leave on a passage coloring in points of danger and other important info. Being careful and at the same time enjoying what a paper chart is telling you makes for a better prepared passage. I guess we are MAPHEADS. We have two chart plotters going most of the time, one in dog house and one at helm. We plot on paper charts from the log information which comes from the chart plotter on every watch or when needed, unless we are using sexton for fun or a passage we feel like going with sexton. One great thing about paper is you can write on it. Most of us passage making cruisers listen to one or two nets on the ssb. It is nice to write down reports on chart of weather and other information that may be given out. I like to put wind barbs on the chart of reporting boats in the right locations because you can get a different prospective of what is happening around you even two or three hundred miles distance. Nice to know where everyone else is or was last report, also in case there is an emergency.

One more thing, I'm going to give the grand kids those charts and logs someday and hope they learn the story that was told. Maybe someday they will follow our journeys in their own boats. Of course with new and up dated charts.
__________________

__________________
stevewrye is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
charts

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:30.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.