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Old 07-07-2012, 06:26   #16
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by foggysail View Post
I have navigated with paper charts almost since God invented dirt. Sure, I use a GPS....it has no routes stored, I use it to measure my speed and to provide a quick "where am I verification." It is very helpful with tide information.

How does one do a dead reckoning on a computer screen? How does one use electronics when their trusty old battery system proves it is not as trusty as believed? There are so many routes I have plotted on paper, many that I still refer to on trips that I personally would be lost without paper. JMHO

Foggy
One of the things that finally swayed me was trying some of the traditional navigational methods on an electronic chart. It is no great problem, but like anything else a bit of practice is probably a good idea.
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:29   #17
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Originally Posted by noelex 77
I now have detailed electronic charts on 7 separate devices. Six of these have their own power supply which could be recharged with solar, or two other energy sources. I have 5 separate 12v battery supplies.
Two of the chart sources are stored away and protected from lightening damage.

I think this is enough redundancy and paper charts are no longer
Would you bet your life, or maybe just your boat, that the electronics are really protected from lightening strike?

I guess if you're only doing local cruising then I am being dramatic. But for cruising...well.
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:32   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77

One of the things that finally swayed me was trying some of the traditional navigational methods on an electronic chart. It is no great problem, but like anything else a bit of practice is probably a good idea.
Works okay. You have to be careful that you are using the best scale. Also don't press on the screen to hard when using the dividers and never use a pen to mark a electronic chart. Any one know how to get ink off a garmin touch screen
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:35   #19
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
No offence intent ended it was a general comment.
I don't as a general rule bet my reproductive organs

I don't agree with Neoplex but he's entitled to his opinion. And his reproductive organs.
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:36   #20
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by Albro359 View Post
With all that "electronic redundancy", it would probably be cheaper to have paper charts !!
Anyway, what happens when "they" switch off the GPS ????....because "they" are at war with another "evil empire", your electronic charts won't be much use then...
We ALWAYS carry paper charts for the areas we are cruising in ...why ?, because **** happens...GPS off, batteries flat, solar panels broken, boat tipped over ...it can happen....better to be safe than sorry....
Most of the charting devices like laptops and iPads were purchased primarily for other purposes, so it's difficult to compare costs, but the hardware is getting cheaper. OCPN and navionics (on ipad) are incredible bargains and much cheaper than paper charts if you sail large distances.

If they switch off GPS the electronic charts can still be used. Flat batteries are very unlikely with so many indepent power sources and charging options.
Even without any power input I have 20 hours continous use from the inbuilt batteries in the devices.
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:45   #21
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

If they switch off GPS then those of us with iPads and iPhones just continue like nothing happened because these use GLONASS -and- GPS satellites and will work on just one of the two. Who knows, one day we might get Galileo and they will use those too.

cheers,
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:47   #22
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Originally Posted by Rakuflames

If you can do it safely and stress-free more power to you, but I think I will always want paper charts. They give you the big picture like nothing else can. I do the same thing in my car. I have a GPS, but a paper chart gives the big picture. The GPS handles the details.

Of course I don't have six back up electrics, but my car GPS went out recently, just as I was leaving for Miami. Fortunately a friend could use his phone as a GPS (my data plan is very limited), but I wanted that map too.
Now this funny....apparently driving a car requires GPS to navigate also....watch the narrow off ramp at exit 32, there are ditches on both sides that are incorrectly marked on the old paper charts. ;-)
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:52   #23
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by foggysail View Post
How does one do a dead reckoning on a computer screen? How does one use electronics when their trusty old battery system proves it is not as trusty as believed? There are so many routes I have plotted on paper, many that I still refer to on trips that I personally would be lost without paper. JMHO
i found messing around with sextant sights on maxsea took only a very short time to get used to, didn't take long for the process to be faster than on paper. Plus you can save everything so it doesn't clutter the chart next time but still there if you want it in the future. Can't see dead reckoning or EP's being any different. Haven't played around with opencpn in that area yet so we shall see. But that would need to be done only if your gps (all of them ) went down, there are much more likely things to worry about.

Passage planning for waypoints is definitely much faster on a computer, having all the tides for any time you want a click away speeds things up lots.

I've sailed before completely paperless and didn't feel too comfortable about it, just a small scale passage planning chart and a cruising guide will get you pretty much anywhere if everything else goes. Though if I had as much redundancy as noelex it might have felt a bit more comfortable.
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:52   #24
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
If they switch off GPS the electronic charts can still be used.
I've used my electronic charts more than once when the antenna stopped working. All that met was that I had a chart at the helm than didn't blow away and for which I could zoom in/out.


The last thing I want to do in new waters is go below to use a paper chart. The last thing I want to do in the rain and wind in the cockpit is deal with paper!
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:33   #25
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Not having a big LCD display is not a reason to stick to paper charts... it is a reason to buy a big LCD display
They are cheaper than the paper charts too...

ciao!
Nick.
But it's kind of difficult to lay a 42" LCD display (that's 107 cm to you metric types ) in your lap or fold it up to carry to the cockpit.

I too like electronics for day to day navigation but for me even a fairly large screen just cannot replace the big picture I get from a large paper chart.

On the other hand, I would not hesitate to go sailing with just electronic charts and depending on the trip or destination maybe a guide book or two.
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:43   #26
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Quote:
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He has multiple backups, and it's unlikely they would all be plugged in at the same time. Why waste the battery power?
Electronics dont have to be on or plugged in to be damaged by the emp pulse of a direct or near lightening strike.

Redundancy is a great solution for the gremlins that love to hide in electronics that are exposed to the hostile enviroment of a sailing environment, but are no protection from a direct bit by lightning.

But this leads us down the argument about whether we prepare our boats for likely problems or try to prepare for every possible eventuality which is a different discussion that has been talked to death on other threads
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:46   #27
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by Hotel L View Post
Would you bet your life, or maybe just your boat, that the electronics are really protected from lightening strike?

I guess if you're only doing local cruising then I am being dramatic. But for cruising...well.
I am blue water crusing.
Lightning is very unpredictable and a severe strike can do an incrediale amount of damage, but I think devices in a metal box inside a metal boat are resonably safe from the much more common mild or moderate strikes.
Of course severe lightning strikes, can and do, sink boats. This is far greater risk to life than loosing all charts where in most circumstances you could still make port safely.
Fibreglass boats sink more commonly in lightning strikes than metal boats, but it is not sensible to ask fiberglass boat owners why they want to "risk their life" taking such a chance. The risk is just too small to be a great consideration.
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:52   #28
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

You still need Paper charts to negotiate a Atoll pass in the pacific, or to cross many tricky places in the bahamas , thats why we see many hard groundings or boats loss at reefs in many well charted spots, and about Lightning, a simple electronic barometer can be toasted feets away of any dc wiring .
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:55   #29
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I dont generally use paper for day to day navigating. Although on long passages i plot my position on paper charts...some habits die hard i guess

Where i find paper most helpful, as i mentioned in another thread, is the speed and efficiency of plotting general waypoints and passage planning. Doesnt have to be long distances, even plotting a multiday trip that passes through islands, shoals, or reefs. I find it so much easier to lay my desired route on an appropriate paper chart, with general key waypoints that easily avoid hazards on the large format of a paper chart, and then transfer these waypoints quickly and easily to my plotter.

The only concern i have with plotters and pc based navigation are the "scaling issues" in which it is not possible to display all the information at all scales on a small screen or even a laptop screen so some information is omitted at different scales. Sharp pointy things are frequently omitted like islands and reefs. It often happens that people plot waypoints and dont zoom in to follow the route they created and can end up with a nasty surprise.

Nothing like a strange black shadow ahead during a 2am watch that you werent expecting, would get the heart pumping methinks.

When they make and more importantly when i can afford a flat touch screen the size of my nav desk i will happily ditch all my paper charts.

Till then, for me, the combination of the two are efficient and safe.
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Old 07-07-2012, 08:01   #30
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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I dont generally use paper for day to day navigating. Although on long passages i plot my position on paper charts...some habits die hard i guess

Where i find paper most helpful, as i mentioned in another thread, is the speed and efficiency of plotting general waypoints and passage planning. Doesnt have to be long distances, even plotting a multiday trip that passes through islands, shoals, or reefs. I find it so much easier to lay my desired route on an appropriate paper chart, with general key waypoints that easily avoid hazards on the large format of a paper chart, and then transfer these waypoints quickly and easily to my plotter.

The only concern i have with plotters and pc based navigation are the "scaling issues" in which it is not possible to display all the information at all scales on a small screen or even a laptop screen so some information is omitted at different scales. Sharp pointy things are frequently omitted like islands and reefs. It often happens that people plot waypoints and dont zoom in to follow the route they created and can end up with a nasty surprise.

Nothing like a strange black shadow ahead during a 2am watch that you werent expecting, would get the heart pumping methinks.

When they make and more importantly when i can afford a flat touch screen the size of my nav desk i will happily ditch all my paper charts.

Till then, for me, the combination of the two are efficient and safe.

Exactly, zoom in, zoom zoom+ and all is clear and good, back to the paper chart and the dam rock is there, for me the best way to negotiate tricky navigation is to get a full set of waypoints in paper chart , save it in the plotter and follow the well know eyeball navigation.
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