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Old 15-07-2012, 20:30   #271
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

In a culture that thrives on replacing peoples ability to think for themselves with the latest gizmo...electronic navigation systems are great when they work. Nothing on a boat can be expected to function perfectly 100% of the time, the more complex, the more this holds true.
Any system or component the failure of which puts you or your boat at risk should be examined.
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Old 15-07-2012, 20:34   #272
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There is a great old timer sailor in our place. He has a large old schooner that he sails and he spins a great yarn.

He piblishes these in our club rag. The latest installment talks about an overnight sail from one island to another back in the 80's? He set the course 10 degrees off. The next morning instead of an island they saw sea. The sky was overcast.

Long story short it was overcast for 3 days. The crew, one of whom was native and who's father was lost at sea insisted they head for Africa as it was a land mass that could not be missed and could be reached in 3 or 4 days. In other words in their conventional wisdom, if you got lost there was little chance of finding the island or any other island and rather than starve or be lsot at sea you hightail for something you can hit.

The story is briliant in its telling but over the course of three days thnsions got higher and higher as the captain assetted his authority to stay put until they could get a fix. Finally on the third day a sun shot was possible and they were over 100 miles off course.

So the question here is what happens if the sky fails, not the gps? LOL...
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Old 15-07-2012, 20:39   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee
In a culture that thrives on replacing peoples ability to think for themselves with the latest gizmo...electronic navigation systems are great when they work. Nothing on a boat can be expected to function perfectly 100% of the time, the more complex, the more this holds true.
Any system or component the failure of which puts you or your boat at risk should be examined.
I examine all my boat as regularly as I can ... Next ?
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Old 15-07-2012, 20:45   #274
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

I met a man here who sailed freighters for decades a now teaches navigation..one thing he stresses is "Use all sources of data at hand and become proficient in as many forms of navigation as possible. "
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Old 15-07-2012, 20:53   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee
I met a man here who sailed freighters for decades a now teaches navigation..one thing he stresses is "Use all sources of data at hand and become proficient in as many forms of navigation as possible. "
Ask a modern freighters mate where the sextant is, ?????

Dave
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Old 15-07-2012, 21:15   #276
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The truth of the matter is in my experience most sailors carry SOME charts but in fact sail by plotter and gps. I always try and have backup paper chart and I like if possible to keep a running plotted fix.

bUT often it's impossible to find or very very expensive to carry detailed paper charts of a long route. Hence I may have overlay small scale planning charts , but I don't have detailed coastal approach charts. Here I rely on my plotter as it DOES have all of these.

Like all things on a boat, it's a trade off, a compromise, nothing's perfect.

Dave

I study the paper charts in detail the night before any day of sailing. Then I view the chart plotter as just part of the paper plot right in front of me instead of off to the side. Without the paper charts I would not have the "big picture." But I can tell you that coming across Lake Okeechobee we will be very glad to have a chart plotter as the markers are very far apart and it would be easy to go off course enough to end up in trouble. The boat we'll be sailing has a bulb keel and we *really* don't want to go aground on that boat. We would be foolish not to use every tool available to us.
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Old 15-07-2012, 21:19   #277
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
In a culture that thrives on replacing peoples ability to think for themselves with the latest gizmo...electronic navigation systems are great when they work. Nothing on a boat can be expected to function perfectly 100% of the time, the more complex, the more this holds true.
Any system or component the failure of which puts you or your boat at risk should be examined.

I challenge the first statement -- what gadget has overtaken my thinking? Never mind, your mind is made up -- so who has stopped thinking???

As for the rest ... DUH.

Charts can easily be blown or washed overboard. Nothing is perfect. I'm sorry, but what you're saying is the equivalent of "2 + 2 = 4," but you seem to think it's some fresh insight that no one (especially all those robotic, non-thinking chart plotter users) has thought of.
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Old 15-07-2012, 21:24   #278
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I challenge the first statement -- what gadget has overtaken my thinking? Never mind, your mind is made up -- so who has stopped thinking???

As for the rest ... DUH.

Charts can easily be blown or washed overboard. Nothing is perfect. I'm sorry, but what you're saying is the equivalent of "2 + 2 = 4," but you seem to think it's some fresh insight that no one (especially all those robotic, non-thinking chart plotter users) has thought of.
How many times do you ask someone a question and instead of trying to think of an answer they check their smart phones
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Old 15-07-2012, 21:29   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee
How many times do you ask someone a question and instead of trying to think of an answer they check their smart phones
This is reactionary nonsense, in the past I had to resort to books dictionaries, encyclopaedias etc, now I get an answer that informs my opinion much quicker, hence I can look up far more then before.

Dave
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Old 15-07-2012, 22:04   #280
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Ask a modern freighters mate where the sextant is, ?????

Dave
No idea why you would say that, i work on ultra modern and technically advanced ships with more navigational gizmos than you can poke a stick at.......the mate, the second and myself all know where the sextant is and how to use it.....

You are still required to be passed competent in Celestial Nav to get your ticket here....noon sights are still taken, periodic checks to make sure the instrument is still functional and not damaged are still required and recorded.....we even maintain chronometer and compass logs as required by survey.....

On Topic: The fact is paper charts will still be published and used as long as governments and commercial interests demand it, the recreational boater will have very little if any say on their demise.....

If you don't want to use them then don't, nobodyís forcing you to, unless local regís require it that is.....Whichever way people go i just wish they would stop trying to justify their decision(s) by denigrating those that have decided otherwise, itís pathetic to be honest....

I prefer to use everything at my disposal and that includes paper charts, chart plotter, sextant, compass etc etc, but thatís just me. I couldnít give a rats butt hole what anybody else does, I have better things to do with my time than trying to convert others to my way of thinking, or even worse, worrying about what others think of the decisions I have made.....

Itís all about ME, not YOU........
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Old 15-07-2012, 23:51   #281
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
I met a man here who sailed freighters for decades a now teaches navigation..one thing he stresses is "Use all sources of data at hand and become proficient in as many forms of navigation as possible. "
I think this is a very valid statement. I like to review all the sources of information even it's just a 20 nm day sail. I am almost always sailing to a new location that I have not been before, and the anchorages around here are very poorly mapped, with depths completely wrong. New marinas have been built.
As well as pure navigation information I live on the yacht so I need other practical details. Is there a shop within walking distance for supplies, can I get butane, petrol for the dingy. Where are my sailing friends? Are there interesting sights on the island?. These are some of the day to day questions of a cruising boat.

One difficulty is there are becoming too many sources of information.
3 pilot books (one of which is in German only), c-maps, navionics, maxsea google earth, the internet and paper charts.

With this explosion of information in some circumstances I have to be selective even though I enjoy planning where we are going and imagining what a new anchorage will be like. Of the above forms of information paper charts are one of the less useful ( although the pilot books are paper and these are one of the best and most vital sources of information)
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Old 16-07-2012, 00:00   #282
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Anyone else prepared to "come out" and agree paper charts have become obsolete on their boat.

The question was loaded from the start? As in "do you still beat your wife"?

There was no yes/no choice in answering, hence 281 posts later it still goes on...........and on. Well done!
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Old 16-07-2012, 00:14   #283
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Being new to water sailing">Blue water sailing, Paper charts, GPS, Navigation, ETC, Even a boat of this size, It was all brand new to me,

I had to learn the lot in a very very short time, Like a day and a half, and then I was totally on my own,

I took six weeks learning all I could about my boat and the miriad whizz bangs and all other electronic gizmo's on it, Most of which, I didnt even know the names of, including the mass of Paper charts on board,

I had no preconcieved idea's on what was good or bad, This is what Ive got and its use is up to me, There is no one else to hold my hand,

I have found the paper charts Are lacking in the exceptional detail the GPS has, especially when you zoom it in real close to where you are,
The GPS is constantly updated as information is released and transmitted by satellite,

How old is the latest paper chart that is just released, By the time it is printed and distributed and delivered to your hot little hand,

I can travel a max of 200 miles in a day, How much more area do I need to see, whether paper or GPS, I already have the broad picture of where I am going in my head,

In the crappiest whether, Night time, I cant see a damn thing, The GPS pinpoints exactly where I am, It is exceptionally accurate, I dont need to see where I am going, The GPS does it for me, It also shows the little submerged rocks that I have miss,

Make no doubt about it, Sailing Blind is the most scariest and hair raising thing I have ever done in my life time, Its not recommended under any circumstance, Especially in unknown waters, My skin still crawls just thinking about it,

Crossing the gap in the reef coming out of Fiji at midnight, My life is in the hands of a damned electronic Gizmo, That I dont even know if its working properly or not,

A paper chart will do none of these things, They are handy if you can see something, But useless if you cant,

3 oceans and 3000 Nm later, GPS and paper charts, You can stick the paper charts, They are just so outdated and uninformative,

If your close to shore, less than 12 miles, Google Maps or Google Earth will do the same as a paper chart any way, and a sight more accurate,

A Laptop running on battery, will cover you if your house batterys going flat, Just have a GPS dongle connected with a USB, Does the same as a Full Main Boat GPS, I also have a little Solar panel that runs only the Laptop,

A lightning strike will possibly kill you as well as your electrics, And paper charts are hard to read if they are drowned, My paper charts all went into the bin, just a soggy mess, I still have my GPS, It was high enough to not get wet,

I was running a Garmin "C" chart in my GPS and found it dead Accurate, Except south of the Burnett River entrance in Qld, when it said I was sailing up the beach, I was half a mile off shore, But that was daytime and I could see, Thank goodness,

Coming into Forster, 2-00 AM in the morning, Sailing Blind, When I could see, I was dead in the middle of the Channel were The GPS said I was, Those rock walls fifty feet either side of me were not inviting, especially in a tide running out at about 8 Knots,

This is only my opinion, What others think, Is entirely up to them and the safety of their boat,

Cheers,
Brian,
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Old 16-07-2012, 00:53   #284
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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The GPS is constantly updated as information is released and transmitted by satellite
Could you please expand on this a bit Mr B......
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Old 16-07-2012, 01:36   #285
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Y

So has any any sailing boat ever anywhere been done for not having paper charts onboard?
You should try asking the question on "That Other Forum" it would keep them arguing for weeks
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